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 Post subject: Re: leveling frets
PostPosted: Sun Dec 14, 2014 9:22 am 
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Koa
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Location: UK
Hesh wrote:
Nice Ken!

Classicals benefit from precision fret work for the very same reasons that steel strings do and just like with steel string guitars the necks on classicals move as well creating errors in the fret plane over time that benefit from precision fret dressing.

Relief is not lost in the fret dressing process by any means.... Instead a skilled Luthier knowledgable with fret work can increase relief, reduce relief, move relief to the other side of the board, and control the amount of relief and no truss rod is required.... A PLEK can do these things too but we humans were doing it first.... ;)

Granted poor fret work is often not as noticeable on classicals because of the higher action being more forgiving but we see classicals with issues as well, issues that are resolved at times with fret dressing. We also see classicals where the frets have been poorly glued or not glued at all and they are now loose and spongy moving up and down with pressure. They have to be reseated, glued, clamped and then the thing is leveled and dressed.

Sure classicals won't be bending the G string one whole step up at the 12th and subject to fretting out if the fret work sucks but they still benefit from decent fret work.


You can do all that on the board itself (as I do it) before any fretting is done. That way you have little to do in the way of fret dressing and it maintains the original profile of the frets.


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 Post subject: Re: leveling frets
PostPosted: Sun Dec 14, 2014 9:35 am 
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Cocobolo
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Hesh wrote:
My only regret is that I entered this trade in my 50's now thinking that I will not have enough time to get to where I want to be (if that doesn't change too....).

+1

Hesh, can you comment on how you deal with tongue rise/high tongue frets on electrics, primarily on cheaper bolt-on necks? My techniques and tools are nearly identical to yours and my clients are all very happy with my fretwork... except for greaseball who wants 3/64" action with no buzz. I have never been able to get this very low action due to high tongue frets that I find on virtually every bolt-on neck that comes into my shop. I use the neck jig and get those suckers dead flat, add a bit of fallaway, and then string up only to still have upper register buzz. Most of these customers are college kids who can't or won't pay for a re-fret and fretboard leveling. gaah

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 Post subject: Re: leveling frets
PostPosted: Sun Dec 14, 2014 9:38 am 
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Old Growth Brazilian Rosewood
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Michael.N. wrote:
Hesh wrote:
Nice Ken!

Classicals benefit from precision fret work for the very same reasons that steel strings do and just like with steel string guitars the necks on classicals move as well creating errors in the fret plane over time that benefit from precision fret dressing.

Relief is not lost in the fret dressing process by any means.... Instead a skilled Luthier knowledgable with fret work can increase relief, reduce relief, move relief to the other side of the board, and control the amount of relief and no truss rod is required.... A PLEK can do these things too but we humans were doing it first.... ;)

Granted poor fret work is often not as noticeable on classicals because of the higher action being more forgiving but we see classicals with issues as well, issues that are resolved at times with fret dressing. We also see classicals where the frets have been poorly glued or not glued at all and they are now loose and spongy moving up and down with pressure. They have to be reseated, glued, clamped and then the thing is leveled and dressed.

Sure classicals won't be bending the G string one whole step up at the 12th and subject to fretting out if the fret work sucks but they still benefit from decent fret work.


You can do all that on the board itself (as I do it) before any fretting is done. That way you have little to do in the way of fret dressing and it maintains the original profile of the frets.


Sure that's how we do it too milling in relief and fall-away into the board prior to fretting. We again use the leveling beams to mill the board too but with 80 grit on them. My experience has been that very little leveling is required for a newly fretted instrument when the board is shaped and leveled as desired first too. But my experience has also been that you cannot know how accurate your fret work is regardless of the care taken to shape/level the board without also marking frets and seeing where the beam hits after the frets are in.

Regardless of if one presses or hammers or both installing frets has room to introduce error. Fret wire may have inconsistencies as well. That final leveling corrects these minor errors, takes very little time to do, gives me great piece of mind that come set-up time the desired set-up won't be limited by inaccuracies in the fret plane.


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 Post subject: Re: leveling frets
PostPosted: Sun Dec 14, 2014 10:02 am 
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Old Growth Brazilian Rosewood
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Greg Maxwell wrote:
Hesh wrote:
My only regret is that I entered this trade in my 50's now thinking that I will not have enough time to get to where I want to be (if that doesn't change too....).

+1

Hesh, can you comment on how you deal with tongue rise/high tongue frets on electrics, primarily on cheaper bolt-on necks? My techniques and tools are nearly identical to yours and my clients are all very happy with my fretwork... except for greaseball who wants 3/64" action with no buzz. I have never been able to get this very low action due to high tongue frets that I find on virtually every bolt-on neck that comes into my shop. I use the neck jig and get those suckers dead flat, add a bit of fallaway, and then string up only to still have upper register buzz. Most of these customers are college kids who can't or won't pay for a re-fret and fretboard leveling. gaah


Hi Greg and sure! We geezers have to stick together... :D

Fender style bolt-on necks often suffer from that ski ramp that develops over the body joint. It is perhaps the single most common limiting factor IMO that we see that prevents very low action. We will save the issue on Fenders of too little break angle at the nut due to the design of the neck and desire to make a neck out of an economical piece of lumber for another time...

Since we share some methods and likely learned from some of the same people since you went to Bryans and my business partner used to teach at Bryan's school.

The answer as you already mentioned is fall-away and as you likely know milling in the fall-away after the 12th can be a real chore....

When we mark frets and level them what I want to see is that I am hitting everywhere on every fret through the 12th. After the 12th or somewhere close I want to see that I am not hitting and that fall-away exists. How we create this fall-away is with a short beam that can span from the 12th past the last. We put a piece of masking tape on the first 1/2" or so of the beam covering the sand paper. This creates a very slight angle downward. The taped end of the beam is positioned over the 12th and in using the beam we try to keep the taped end of the beam over the 12th. The slight angle concentrates material removal over the extension with the most material being removed from the very last few frets. It's common to have to replace the tape several times or so in that it gets chewed up riding on the crown of the 12th.

This creates fall-away and you can take it as far as you think that you need to go. Most of the time I just try to get the extension frets out of the way of the level set of the 1st through the 12th meaning when I mark and hit with the long beam the markings are only removed 1st through 12th and remain 13ish through last.

It's also been my experience that say with a Fender to get their action specs this milling down of the extension very often has to be done or the thing can't even meet the spec of the maker.... :? :D

If there is still interference there may be issues with how well the rod works and where it does and where it does not function in a smooth predictable curve. We also as you well know have to not only deal with the grease ball but the shredder who wants the low E tuned to C..... :?

I'm bringing this up because there are some set-ups that a few folks want that just won't work well with the physics of how any guitar works. We can get very low action in standard tuning reliably but at times folks want stuff that is not really possible to do reliably because of the design of guitars in general. I don't stress over this and when you take a player aside and show them why low C tuning is always going to be problematic if one does not have the perfect touch for it they seem to always understand in my experience. And hey that's what amps are for too... :D

Let me know if you are doing fall-away with a short beam and tape riser?

Lastly milling down the extension frets is as mentioned difficult and can be a lot of work. We also have flat files we use for this and even joked about taking the thing to the belt sander... :D Don't know if you are measuring fall-away but in my experience if you add say .015" from the 12th to the last that's really as good as it is going to get for any tuning.



These users thanked the author Hesh for the post: Robbie_McD (Thu Dec 25, 2014 10:28 am)
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 Post subject: Re: leveling frets
PostPosted: Sun Dec 14, 2014 10:37 am 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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For anyone wit a strong interest in high precision, I strongly recommend reading Wayne Moore's "Foundations of Mechanical Accuracy". For years you couldn't find this book for under a few hundred dollars (it is often considered the bible of precision workmanship), but recently it came available online as a PDF.

Of course the degree of precision it delves in to is thousands of time the level we have any right to concern ourselves with in this field, but the basic concepts are fertile none the less. Acute awareness of just how much the most seemingly rigid forms can distort under the slightest load, basic principles of checking and referencing, calibrating our tools - you don't need to be able to level a 4' surface plate to ten millionths of an inch, but the more you understand and appreciate how these results are achieved, the more you'll find the same core principles working their way in to your methods. There's of course quite a gap between the methods used in calibrating the highest precision machines and what will bring realizable benefits to a flexible neck of wood and metal, but still the more you understand of the higher standards, the closer you'll find yourself to achieving them.

I got my start when I was a machinist apprentice at 18, and was tasked for several months with lapping surface bearings, and the methods of lapping, referencing, and gauging have stuck with me and strongly influenced the methods I've developed for fret work. A bit overkill perhaps, but when practiced and refined can be employed without any significant cost or time, so why not.

We do use straight beams in our shop, leveled and reference to a good surface plate (certified to 25 millionths of an inch some years back, though no doubt past due for recalibration today). Regarding sandpapers, the 3M gold rolls have proven quite reliable. For several years I used a 3M precision lapping film for final checks, 30 micron on a precision uniform backing. After years of stubbornly insisting on using this for my final reference though, its use has faded since I've finally admitted that I've never found it to reveal any notable inconcistencies left by the 3m 240 stage. For a non-precision, not guaranteed to be uniform sandpaper, this stuff does a pretty darn good job.

Of course much of the precision is due to the methods, where any minor deviations in the sandpaper are cancelled out and to some degree self regulated by how the beams are moved and positioned. It's not something simple to describe, but simply involves good awareness of how precision is affected and achieved. My precision leveling process can often involve as much as 3, 4, sometimes more sequential stages of leveling, crowning, and referencing. May seem like unnecessary redundancy, but with practice can bring notable refinement with very little added time. Grit and pressure are altered through the process, along with very intentional control of position and deflection of the neck, and awareness of inevitable deflection of the beams. Sounds like it may be hard and time consuming, and while it is both of these to learn, once mastered it is no longer either.

How much precision is enough? I view precision in two main categories - long and short range. Short range precision is simpler to quantify. With any two adjacent frets, any discrepancies must be multiplied by 18 at the saddle to allow the same clearance for the string on the following fret when compared to perfectly level. This means if fret 2 is .001" higher than fret 1, or 10 is .001" higher than 9, the saddle must be raised .018 higher to give the same clearance over 2 or 10 when fretted at 1 or 9. To put it in perspective, this means that a half of a thousandth variance would require a bit more than a 1/3 turn on your Strat saddle screws to allow for the same clearance. Not huge, but not quite close enough for me to call "perfect" either. With good tools and methods, it's not that hard to bring your short range tolerances down to within 1/10-1/4 of a thousandth of an inch.

Long range tolerances are a bit harder to quantify, as well as harder to define an ultimate "ideal". Aside from determining a preference for straight or relief, how relief is centered and shaped, or where fall away may begin, the neck is really too flexible to place objective final numbers to the shape. Gravity, the pluck of a string, touch of a hand - these all affect significant distortions on the neck. Shape can be strategically controlled in a relative sense though, with varying relief from treble to bass, or deciding whether relief should be centered at the 6-7 frets vs more focused in the first 7 and flattening out slightly from there up. Lot's of different approaches can bring benefits to different players and different necks, so this one is more a strategy and judgement to be developed by experience.

And finally, back to grits - I can use 80, 120, 180, 240, and occasionally still the 30 micron lapping film. It all depends on where you're starting from. If it's a neck I just fretted I may go straight to 240. If I'm leveling out a big hump in a fret dress or doing a partial bar refret, there's no sense in wasting time bringing it in to the initial ballpark, and I may start with a course file.

Longer answer than anyone was lookng for I know, but once I get started... Fret dressing starts out seeming simple. Work for enough demanding players and uncooperative instruments though, and whole realm of previously unconsidered demands and complexities can be revealed. Then comes the long hard learning curve of refining your methods and understanding before you reach the next level. Once practiced and thoroughly understood though, the simplicity and ease of controlling predictable results can be realized in a much more satisfying way.

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 Post subject: Re: leveling frets
PostPosted: Mon Dec 15, 2014 11:53 am 
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Cocobolo
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Thanks for the info, Hesh. I have used the masking tape trick to good effect. I do most of my leveling with 220, going to 120 for establishing fallaway on high tongue frets would help me get there with less work.

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These users thanked the author Greg Maxwell for the post: Hesh (Tue Dec 16, 2014 6:50 pm)
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 Post subject: Re: leveling frets
PostPosted: Tue Dec 16, 2014 3:57 pm 
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Koa
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I learned something David thanks


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 Post subject: Re: leveling frets
PostPosted: Wed Dec 24, 2014 3:59 pm 
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Koa
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wrong thread. idunno


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