Official Luthiers Forum!

Thanks for all the continued input, everybody. Much appreciated. No worries about hijacking, but thanks for being conscientious about that.

I'm hoping that we may get a few more folks weighing in now that the ASIA symposium is over. I may pm Laurent and Alan to ask for their input if they don't jump in on their own.

The reports about P&L #38 remaining imprintably soft for a long time is a concern. Likewise, whether the Epifanes, or any spar/marine varnish, is really hard enough remains a question. Seems like some conflicting experiences about that here. Maybe some additional input from others with a lot of experience trying various varnishes can help clarify things.

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Todd Rose
Ithaca, NY

https://www.dreamingrosesecobnb.com/todds-art-music

https://www.facebook.com/ToddRoseGuitars/

The Epifanes, and other varnishes, may feel soft initially, but it continues to harden over time. Considerably so.

One thing that I have been doing is to build up a base with varnish, sand it very smooth, then lay a bit of shellac on with a French Polish. I usually only work up to the point where it glows with subtle gloss, I really don't like the shiny wet gloss look.

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Expectation is the source of all misery; comparison the thief of joy.
http://redrivercanoe.ca/

Thanks, Doug. Appreciate your ongoing input.

Understood that all varnishes will continue to harden over time. Still, some will remain softer than others. Also, any that are soft enough to be problematic for a period of many months would seem to be not very good options.

Not to be dismissive or disparaging toward you or anyone for their choices -- I truly respect your experience and appreciate you sharing it here -- but I'm still having a bit of a hard time getting my head around why some choose spar varnishes for guitars. I guess the bottom line is that they've tried them and been happy with the results, but spar varnish would certainly not be the first thing I'd think of for guitars, where hardness is, in my mind, a top criterion. And yet, the Epifanes turns up repeatedly as a recommended varnish for guitars.

I'm just trying to get a handle on the rationale for that choice... how the long-term hardness compares in the real world... what effect there may be on the sound of a guitar finished with a varnish that's formulated to remain softer and more flexible for marine purposes... any advantages there may be to that type of varnish for guitars (other than an appealing color or sheen)...

I would look for hardness in a guitar finish for 3 reasons: sound quality (assuming that a softer finish would tend to add damping), resistance to dings, and relative ease of rubbing out to a nice gloss.

Thoughts, anyone?

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Todd Rose
Ithaca, NY

https://www.dreamingrosesecobnb.com/todds-art-music

https://www.facebook.com/ToddRoseGuitars/

Todd, The uralkyd 500 does indeed dry very hard and is ready to buff in about a week according to those who buff to a high gloss. I'm not a salesman for the stuff but seems very easy to try out on scrap to see if it will serve the purpose and must admit I am most curious about others experience with the product.

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Thank You and Best To All

I have no personal experience to share but from what I've read Uralkyd 500 appears is the hardest varnish finish with P&L 38 being the second hardest (of your choices). I recently bought the 500 and will soon be trying it. Thought I would have it done already......such is life.

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Formerly known as Adaboy.......

Hopefully Laurent will add to this thread, I expect he will have the most experience with all of these choices.

He turned me on to the EnduroVar waterbase varnish as well. I've done a few tests and the thing I like the best is that it makes the most perfect dust when sanding, it seems to never clog the paper. It is pretty amazing, actually.

I have done some test panels but have not buffed them out yet. Brushing with a foam brush on a flat panel was surprisingly easy to get a level surface. The actual guitar may be harder. I'm planning on trying it on a mock up guitar soon. Unfortunately I don't have a sense of the film hardness-

Randy Muth had some guitars he finished with the KTM-SV, which also acts like a varnish and is a waterbase. They were beautiful. Not to sidestep the "real" oil varnishes, but they are in the same family I imagine.

I have some P&L that I have been meaning to try too but the thing that always stops me is the lack of easy repairability. That keeps me using the EmTech, even with its other drawbacks. It just seems like such a benefit.

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Burton
http://www.legeytinstruments.com
Brookline, MA.

I've brushed the original Behlen's Rockhard, Ace's, and P&L #38 varnishes, with considerable help/advice from Laurent Brondel. My favorite so far has been the Pratt & Lambert, although witness lines have been a struggle for me with all three. I have a can of Epifane's, but haven't tried it yet. I believe Laurent mixes Epifane's spar varnish with their accelerator to produce both a faster cure and harder finish.

In my last build, using P&L #38, I used disposable foam brushes to build up the bulk of the finish, and after leveling, I switched to a nice bristle brush for the final coat. For me varnish flows much better from bristles, but they are just too hard to keep clean between coats.

I'm also very keen to try the Uralkyd 500.

Jay cloths work even better. Cheap, lint free, and they don't shred like paper towels do. I find they also soak up a bit more finish so you don't have to keep reloading them.

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"I am always doing that which I cannot do, in order that I may learn how to do it."
Pablo Picasso

https://www.facebook.com/FenskeGuitars

Thanks, everyone, for all your input.

Chris, you say your favorite so far has been the P&L. What is it about it that you like the best?

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Todd Rose
Ithaca, NY

https://www.dreamingrosesecobnb.com/todds-art-music

https://www.facebook.com/ToddRoseGuitars/

Todd,
I found the Ace took forever to harden, and didn't care for the amber tone of the Behlen's. The P&L has almost no color and dries very quickly (in my experience).

Chris

Here are some quotes pulled from previous posts by Laurent regarding Epifanes that might help clear things up a bit:

"Epifanes clear varnish is a spar, a long oil varnish. What they call accelerator is composed, I venture to think, of added resins. In any case it transforms the spar into a medium to short oil varnish, depending on dosage. Before using Epifanes I had extended discussions with Stefan Low, the US rep. Very nice fellow, and very knowledgeable people."

"I mix Epi clear varnish 1:1:1 with their accelerator and spray thinner (they also have a slower brush thinner). Essentially I use a quart each and I transfer in glass jars. I add about 20% acetone to the mix."


"- Epifanes clear varnish, a medium to short oil varnish if mixed with the proprietary accelerator. The best quality oil varnish around IMHO, less amber than RH but still with that oil varnish "character". This is my "standard" varnish.
- Ace Interior Varnish, paler than Epifanes
- Pratt & Lambert #38, a very pale varnish, the palest I know. At .003" film thickness it can look like a real clear finish (i.e. untinted nitro). Fine Euro and Englemann tops look great with this one.
- Behlen Water White Restoration varnish, a very clear spar, similar to Rockhard except paler and a tad softer when fresh."

Hope this helps.
I've also been thinking of trying an oil varnish on my next. I've always loved the look.

Absolutely, without a doubt, the U500 is the best all around. I used many different varnishes and the U500 is the best of all. That is why I decided to be a dealer for all Sutherland Welles products. If you were to contact them about guitar finishing, they would send you to me
here is a link to my store for those of you who would like to try it for yourselves.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Guitar-Luthier- ... 5af09f8073

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Guitar Maker and Purveyor of the World's Finest Tonewoods
http://www.aaronhixguitars.com/
http://stores.ebay.com/A-Hix-Tonewood-a ... r-Supplies

The U500 can be brushed, sprayed (very nice to spray) It levels extremely well, dries hard as glass, sands very easily without clogging up your sandpaper, fully cures and is ready to buff out in about a week, and will never degrade, yellow, or delaminate like urethane finishes do. The only thing that could be considered a negative is the dry time between recoats, about 12 hours. But the solids build is much thicker per coat than most other finishes, so that actually is balanced out in my opinion.

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Guitar Maker and Purveyor of the World's Finest Tonewoods
http://www.aaronhixguitars.com/
http://stores.ebay.com/A-Hix-Tonewood-a ... r-Supplies

I had not heard of the imprinting problem with the P&L #38. I've done some trials with it, but have not used it on an instrument as yet. Are you folks thinning it out?

When I got my P&L I asked the store about thinner. The 'Rockhard' varnish used a proprietary reducer, and it occurred to me that they might do the same. P&L does, indeed, sell a reducer that's very similar to the old Behlen's Rockhard reducer, if the label is to be believed: they both have mineral spirits, a low molecular weight solvent, and either trimethyl-benzine or ethyl-benzine.

Back when, I tried thinning my 'Rockhard' varnish with paint store thinner, and go a white precipitate in the bottom of the can, after which the stuff stopped drying properly. It occurs to me that they might be using some sort of metal-salt dryer, which is not very soluble in the usual solvents. Benzine is a carcinogen and banned, but with the added methyl or ethyl groups it might be relatively 'safe', and the other light fractions could help keep that dissolved.

One of my students is finishing an archtop with the Murdoch's varnish. It does seem quite hard, and is saning out well so far, with only a minimum of witness lines. It drys to a somewhat eggshell surface, possibly due to tung oil in the formulation? We'll see how it buffs up; it's taking him some time due to some family issues. Also, the Murdoch's varnish is about the whitest and clearest stuff I've seen. Itlooks great on maple, with just enough color to avoid looking undernourished. If you want a little more color you could get some oil soluble aniline dyes.

Not my experience AT ALL with the U500. Unless our definition of 'egg shell' is different. Here's a quick pic of a sample Mahogany piece that has 2 coats U500 over ZPoxy no leveling, 24 hour cure. Mirror gloss to my eye.

I wonder what's different about the application? Or is my judgement of 'glossy' way off?

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Thank You and Best To All

So I'm pretty ignorant on the subject of the various types of varnishes...what type of varnish is the U500? Is it a true varnish like the others discussed in this thread?

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Thank You and Best To All

Aaron, is it possible for you ship it to the UK, or is it a 'hazardous substance'?

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"I am always doing that which I cannot do, in order that I may learn how to do it."
Pablo Picasso

https://www.facebook.com/FenskeGuitars

Thanks for your input, Aaron. This page http://www.sutherlandwelles.com/products/murdochs/murdochs-uralkyd-500.html tells us it's a uralkyd* and is "a high-quality resin, formulated with low toxic driers and solvents". Can you tell us more about what's in it? For example, what oil is used?

It says "The brush/applicator can be cleaned with turpentine, mineral spirits, or our citrus-derived solvent, Sutherland Welles Ltd. ®’s Di-Citrusol™." Does it also work well to thin it with mineral spirits or turpentine?

Has it been tested in direct application to bare woods such as rosewood, i.e. is that likely to present curing problems? I know Sutherland Welles has their own "Hard Sealer", but their description of that product doesn't really sound like a sealer per se; it sounds like a long oil varnish, which seems like it could have even more trouble curing on rosewood. Presumably, one could seal with shellac, but it would be good to know if the U500 can be thinned and used as its own sealer on oily woods.

*Alkyd resin (definition taken from Bob Flexner) is a type of polyester made with alcohol and acid. Uralkyd is alkyd modified with polyurethane resin. According to Flexner, "the polyurethane you most often see in paint stores is uralkyd."

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Todd Rose
Ithaca, NY

https://www.dreamingrosesecobnb.com/todds-art-music

https://www.facebook.com/ToddRoseGuitars/

Thanks, William. Laurent pm'd me yesterday with some similar, but I believe somewhat updated, information on his methods. I am presently getting back to him with a few questions for clarification. After I get his response, I will post the essentials of our conversation here for everyone to see.

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Todd Rose
Ithaca, NY

https://www.dreamingrosesecobnb.com/todds-art-music

https://www.facebook.com/ToddRoseGuitars/

Alan, thank you for weighing in here. Much appreciated. Please keep us posted on the results of your student's tests with the Murdoch's.

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Todd Rose
Ithaca, NY

https://www.dreamingrosesecobnb.com/todds-art-music

https://www.facebook.com/ToddRoseGuitars/

Thanks for your continued input, too, Larry.

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Todd Rose
Ithaca, NY

https://www.dreamingrosesecobnb.com/todds-art-music

https://www.facebook.com/ToddRoseGuitars/

Hi Peter, I was told by Sutherland Welles that is far too much trouble to ship overseas than it is worth.. Technically, these finishes are non-flammable, but in an airplane, they are considered "hazardous".. so no I cant ship overseas. I can ship these finishes to Canada, Mexico, etc. as long as it is shipped Ground.

_________________
Guitar Maker and Purveyor of the World's Finest Tonewoods
http://www.aaronhixguitars.com/
http://stores.ebay.com/A-Hix-Tonewood-a ... r-Supplies

Thanks for your input, Aaron. This page http://www.sutherlandwelles.com/products/murdochs/murdochs-uralkyd-500.html tells us it's a uralkyd* and is "a high-quality resin, formulated with low toxic driers and solvents". Can you tell us more about what's in it? For example, what oil is used?

It says "The brush/applicator can be cleaned with turpentine, mineral spirits, or our citrus-derived solvent, Sutherland Welles Ltd. ®’s Di-Citrusol™." Does it also work well to thin it with mineral spirits or turpentine?

Has it been tested in direct application to bare woods such as rosewood, i.e. is that likely to present curing problems? I know Sutherland Welles has their own "Hard Sealer", but their description of that product doesn't really sound like a sealer per se; it sounds like a long oil varnish, which seems like it could have even more trouble curing on rosewood. Presumably, one could seal with shellac, but it would be good to know if the U500 can be thinned and used as its own sealer on oily woods.

*Alkyd resin (definition taken from Bob Flexner) is a type of polyester made with alcohol and acid. Uralkyd is alkyd modified with polyurethane resin. According to Flexner, "the polyurethane you most often see in paint stores is uralkyd."[


Todd, the U500 is a tung oil based varnish (pure botanical polymerized tung oil) with the highest quality alkyd urethane resins available (much higher quality than "paint store" varieties). The solvent/drier used is called "di-citrusol" which is made from distilled citrus peels. It has no harmful vapors, it just smells like fresh orange peels! This is the first thing that made me attracted to this line of finishes, as I am highly sensitive to the chemicals in most finishing products. You can use low odor mineral spirits or turpentine as a solvent, but there is no need to thin the U500 as it is perfect to use right out of the can. You can thin it, but it tends to lose some of its glossiness.
When a sealer/pore filler is needed on oilier woods, the U500 will adhere to both shellac or Zpoxy, I have used it on both with great success. On non-oily woods, it adheres perfectly well with no sealer needed.
Another method of application is to make a wiping varnish (a short oil finish) by mixing the U500 with the polymerized tung oil at a ratio of 3 parts U500 to 1 part Tung oil. This will extend the dry time somewhat, but makes an easy to apply wiping finish.

_________________
Guitar Maker and Purveyor of the World's Finest Tonewoods
http://www.aaronhixguitars.com/
http://stores.ebay.com/A-Hix-Tonewood-a ... r-Supplies

Thanks, Aaron. Just to be sure I'm understanding you correctly with regard to applying U500 to oily woods, you would NOT recommend using a thinned coat of the U500 itself as a sealer directly on the bare wood, right? Has it been demonstrated to cause a problem with curing using this finish as a sealer on oily woods, or is that more of a precautionary recommendation? (I wouldn't expect a particular problem with adhesion in this application, but, rather, with curing.)

BTW, when I say "bare wood" I mean a surface that has been pore-filled and then sanded back to the wood.

As I understand it, others have had good results applying a well-thinned coat of varnish (Epifanes, for example) as a sealer directly on bare oily woods. The advantage of that, as I understand it, is a better look (at least when compared to sealing with shellac). It also avoids the problem of smearing color around when using alcohol-based sealer (shellac, or epoxy thinned with alcohol) on woods like rosewood, where the alcohol picks up color from the wood.

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Todd Rose
Ithaca, NY

https://www.dreamingrosesecobnb.com/todds-art-music

https://www.facebook.com/ToddRoseGuitars/