Official Luthiers Forum!

I have been self employed for many years and an HSA is what has worked well for me.I believe you can contribute up to about 7500.00 per year per couple,depending on your age which you can deduct from your taxes,I like that part.This can be used to pay for medical and dental expenses to offset your deductible if you chose.Also the premiums are much cheaper than other major medical plans.Plus any money that builds up in the account are yours,which can be withdrawn after a certain age if not used up on medical expenses.Of course that money would be taxed when withdrawn.I`m not sure if this was a Bush plan or what ,and I could care less about politics.I do know that it has worked out well for me and the misses.
James W B

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James W Bolan
Nashville Tennessee

Actually $902 doesn't sound too bad (relatively speaking of course) ... I would just stay with that program for now and explore your alternatives, but remember all healthcare plans are not equal, read the fine print (and the footnotes.)

The other solution would be for your wife to get another job. Not the plan I know, but it would do the trick.

... and with respect to the associations... that actually would be pretty rare for an association to create a pool. Most offer discounts on individual policies, but there are virtually no associations (that I could find) that offer a true group insurance plan that you can buy into. I think it is a GREAT idea, but it is so obvious that there must be some reason why it hasn't been done.

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Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

Health insurance is a huge problem for everyone. That includes big and small employers and the self employed. I run a small business of 6 people and have supplied health insurance for the past 10 years. It has gone from approximately seven thousand dollars a year to six time that. I had to switch insurance companies every other year to try and keep the costs down. Last Monday, I announced that insurance would not be supplied by the company and help with individual policies was not going to happen.

I am 61 and my wife is 60. From 60 to 65 is the worst for health insurance. Too old to be considered healthy and too young for Medicare. I think your best bet is to get a policy with high deductible, benefits for living healthy (free physicals, etc.). Attached to that policy, an insurance policy to cover the deductible for catastrophic events is a good and pretty inexpensive safety net (car wreck, heart attack, etc. ). Also, you can add some sort of health savings account to the policy. The policy should include an advocate to get you insurance company rates for doctor visits, drugs, etc. If you go to the doctor and it cost you $130.00 uninsured, but a provider might pay only half that, you need to be given the lower rate.

This isn't the best insurance in the world. But at my age, I save about 60% from a group policy and about 35% from an individual policy such as BCBS Advantage. I just need to stay healthy. And isn't that is what its all about anyhow?

Ken

I was for several years sort of part of the insurance field as a fraud investigator. Our independent company got on average 175 cases a month to look into. This was as adjusters, business owner and providers thought something not right going on. This is only a small percent of cases out there. I insisted as we did investigations that we assumed the person was not involved in fraud and had to prove the case with the same standard as other criminal activity. We did this and found over 95% of time fraud. The providers are going to make up this approx. Billion dollar a year problem somewhere. They do that in health, work comp, and home policies. I have heard over the years what is the problem it is only the insurance company, employer, State or provider and they are rich and won't miss it. That was and is the problem, they don't have endless pockets and they will make up the loss.

Working in 2 shops there were discussions on this issue a bunch. At Bill's we talked of it often. He looked into doing something in ASIA or having small business and in this case luthier shops into a pool. One problem with this, is well it is agains the law. There is a Fed Law that won't allow pools of small businesses to get policies across State lines. I have talked to folks in both parties in 2 States about this. One party is attempting to repeal this law and allow these small businesses to pool across the State lines. One party is fighting that tooth and nail. Reasons given mostly is the cost of policy from state to state may vary. True, however, as has been noted by the politicans is that this is a false issue and each State Insurance Commissions could make premiums level or set a percent that these companies would have to follow. Most insurance companys would welcome this and more folks and businesses they can get for a pool the better, and keep prices down. From my talks with politicans and insurance company folks, the problem with the one party attempting and stopping the repeal of this Fed Law is it would mess with their plans for universal or single payer insurance. They rail against the HMO's and say everyone should have same policy as they have. Funny, they have an HMO or PPO for most part. They also pay about $350 a month and employer (US) pay the matching funds. Just think if we paid for everyone the full price. Insurance companpies would stop or lower options as they couldn't or would not have Goverment lower premiums so everyone can be covered. If allowed to join pools small business like mine and others with say 3-20 employees could afford to pay half and half as it use to be. Trouble is these small businesses now don't have enough folks working for them, they have folks who may be older or pre conditions, so it isn't feasable to the insurer to make policies for these small businesses. I know we went through this. We had a great policy from national company, but there were not enough of us and most older and with issues. We had to get less coverage for more money and put more cost onto the employee. We finally got up to 25 folks working for me and younger so better coverage. If we could pools the cost would be better for company and insurer with better policy. Remember all policy's are not the same. I won't say which party is trying to get this done and which one is fighting it so can get universal or single payer laws. Bet you can figure it out though. Don't even want to go with other countries plans. Lot of them come here because can't get it there. Best thing is if this is important to you, find out the folks who are for pools and better private policys that would cost all less and one who isn't and contact the pol's and vote according to your findings and what works best for you. You may be on other side than me and that is fine, but have the knowledge of what is going on in this area of concern.

If legislation, not business complexity is what is preventing groups from pooling then it is time to change the law. I don't doubt what you are saying, but that is just wrong. .... I can't say too much more without violating the political rule... but suffice it to say, that I smell heavy lobby activity.

The problems go further than that though. I explored creating a loose affiliate of business owners that formed a corporation and "hired" all stock holders. The company would have no real purpose other than to provide health insurance and other corporate services (accounting, etc.) ... it essentially allowed several businesses to cost share and fix our mutual health insurance issues... The insurers flatly denied it, they said it was "insurance fraud"

Now don't misunderstand... each participant in the program would have to fill out a very detailed health profile and underwriting would have to determine a price for each participant. So there is no chance of slipping risky folks into the pool. .... so how exactly is this "fraud".

they are just a bunch of miserable b*****ds who have figured out how to get a lock on an industry.

I think the only thing that will realistically bring the cycle back around and loosen their grip of power will be when major employers stop proving day to day coverage and move to a hybrid plan like I discussed in an earlier post.

I get what Stan is saying about the pikers who are filing false claims. That is just wrong... But saying business owners who want to pool is fraud is just insulting, and infuriating.......

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Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

Does anybody know if the Small Business Administraton (a federal agency) has any health insurance plans for small businesses?

By the way, it just came to me that this is an international forum with people from other countries. I hope this post doesnt offend those in other countries. My sincerest appologies if it has. This is a serious problem in the US and I am caught int he middle of it. I am just looking for answers from those of us who have similar needs in the USA. Also, I didnt know about the state insurance regulations either, so I find this even more disturbing. I actually have plans to move to another state after my Mother passes on, so this means I am going to face this battle twice from what everyone is telling me?

As Ronald Reagan said: " I'm from the Federal Government and I'm here to help" should scare the pants off of all of us.

Right now I just need solutions. Quickly.

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Reguards,

Ken H

No, they do not.

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Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

In response to stan , I know there are two sides to every story but , first off i find it difficult to believe 95% of the people seeking health care are fraudulent. The insurance industry in this country is extremely broken , and things are going to get much worse , it does not take a genius to figure it out . a few of the very basic problems are , people that run to the doctor for every little sniffle because " insurance pays for it " people ( and lawyers) that sue because " insurance pays for it " the insurance companies dont pay for anything , what they do is raise the rate of everyone that has a policy to pay for their losses . it is basicly socialized medicine , with a huge profit margin figured in for the corporations .

the doctors that "ping pong " patients from one doctor to another is also escalating the cost for everyone that has a policy .

you need in surance to go to the doctor, because he needs insurance you might sue , interesting , the insurance companies make out on both sides!

medical malpractice suits need to end , if you consider who is realy paying for it ! the doctors are not perfect, ( remember the old joke ? 50% of doctors finished in the bottom half of their class!) the doctor didnt make you ill ( in many cases your lifestyle did !), you go there with the hope he may make you well, not a guarantee, why should I ( or veryone that has a policy) be forced to pay for your misfortune ?

politions and legislation are our enemy in this case , since most law makers are lawyers , what are the chances they will seek the benefit of " we the people" and fix the system ? about none!
the last time I was on the road , in tenessee , about 20 years ago, I met a fellow at a camp site , he was a dentist , he told me he went to a local factory that employed about 300 people and told them he would cover everyones dental for 20 dollars a month , it worked fine until the feds came in and said " you are selling insurance,thats ilegal" and they shut him down ! whats wrong with that picture? he said he was suing , but I have never heard of the outcome of the case .
the problem with health care in thsi country are lawyers, lobbyist , politions and big corporations,which are destroying the basic fiber this country was founded on and made it so great, we are now spiraling out of control!
I say the insurance industry is a pyramid scheme because the solutions offered by politions ( backed by the insurance lobby) are never " how do we fix a broken system " but " how do we get more people involved paying at the base !

its does not take a genius to see insurance rates will continue to rise with the present system , until only the elite can afford to go to a doctor ! Jody

Well Brock you answered my question about forming a corporation or business entity to pool demand for things like health insurance.

The current health insurance system is designed to protect itself and fend off any change in the way that health care is provided.

I woke up this morning to find a PM in my in box from a member here who I don't know and don't believe I have had any contact with prior. Their message to me for my mention of the health care systems in several other countries was for me to shove it.......... Good morning Vietnam.......

Health care in America is currently the single largest part of our GNP - it is BIG business! And as America becomes more and more a service sector economy Health care will remain not only where more and more Americans are employed but a larger and larger chunk of where the family budget ends up being spent.

What I call designer drugs are the rage. Your hair can be replaced, your sex life enhanced or at least you will have more options as to where to hang your laundry, and there is even something for people who have a nervous leg...... What the heck is a nervous leg anyway?

It seems to me, said in my best Colombo voice....., that as our economy shifts to a service sector economy the supporting infrastructure is lagging behind and still favoring a corporate, manufacturing based economic model.

With this said we are in a time of transition and confusion and admittedly a lack of good options for people like independent Luthiers.

So far the best solution that I have heard here is to get married and become a part of your wife's plan.......

Anyone wanna marry me?

That is not what Stan said. Of the 170 or so cases he investigated (suspected fraud), 95% were just that.

Mike

I dunno, are you a good cook? Do the laundry? Clean up after me?

I understand that having accident or catastrophic insurance is a must for everyone, and that genetic illnesses are beyond our control (at this point) and need to be addressed regularly and competently but the most important thing you can do for yourself is to live a healthy lifestyle. I know it is obvious, but I think it needs to be said. We all know what is good for us and what is not. We spend so much time worrying about getting sick and staying out of the doctors office that almost no one I know goes in for regular checkups to practice preventative medicine (except for the age related cancers). A healthy population benefits everyone involved in the health care system, from low to high. It is easy to think about the health care issues in terms of business but the goal of that business is to make us all healthy(at a profit of course) and we undermine that goal every day. I don't think it is surprising that it is so messy.

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Burton
http://www.legeytinstruments.com
Brookline, MA.

Isn't that still illegal down there?

If you married me, you'd get healthcare

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Bob Garrish
Former Canonized Purveyor of Fine CNC Luthier Services

In my real job, I work as a lead press operator for a global multi-billion dollar company that specializes in food packaging. I insure my whole family through their self funded policy for less than $200 a month, very minimal copays and -0- deductables. My hernia operation last year cost me $90 out of pocket when all was said and done. One would think this is a good thing and that I should be grateful, but interest in my guitars is ramping up at a petty good pace, to the point where lutherie and a few side gigs could replace my current income. As long as I work this job, my output as a luthier is what it is regardless of the demand. So, the killer health insurance I now have is in reality my proverbial ball and chain. In my book, a form of wage slavery.

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Ken Whisler, guitarist and luthier

I wouldn't say that this thread is offensive. I read the whole thing (yes, I slogged through the whole thing), and bewildering is the word that I would use. I sympathize with the situation and my heart goes out to you all. I just cannot imagine having to live under those circumstance, so I am bewildered.

I have no direct experience with private providers to offer you, Ken, anything that I can offer is my experience with my own, public, health care system. The risk of adding political content is high, so I will refrain and tread lightly.

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Expectation is the source of all misery; comparison the thief of joy.
http://redrivercanoe.ca/

I think you can make pools within a State. I guess each state would have their own laws on that. What can't be done is making pools from state to state. Say all of us here wanted to be a pool, we couldn't because it would be made of folks in different states. That is what we need to have changed in the Fed law. One would have to check their individual state laws. No matter what think of present Admi (and I have to admit being split agreeing and disagreeing with him) the Pres. in all of his State of Unions has tried to get Congress to act on this. They propose a bill doing so and then it gets voted down.

Brock I have never heard of that either. Only thing I can think of there is a law stuck somewhere to prevent it or the law I have been talking about prevents that and they would consider it fraud. Don't know, never dealt or heard of that. I don't know how it would be fraud though, doesn't even in what I know make up elements of a crime.

I will try to find the proposed laws and how it was voted on and if ok post it so folks can look at it and decide on it and where they stand.

Doug,

We hear so much about this system and that. I am just curious how yours works. Last summer, I had two operations on my right foot to improve function (mostly so I could run without pain). I called for an appointment, was in the next day, and had the operations 2-3 days later. This was not medically necessary (I don't HAVE to run since this is just a "hobby"). But service was excellent, in and out. Post operative visits were fast and efficient.

Would it work the same way where you are? (yes, I was covered by insurance).

In the US, our tax code (Federal) can extract perhaps up to 30% of our income. I also pay $200/month for family insurance cost sharing. In your country, what is the Federal (Provincial?) typical tax rate?

Mike

Mike

Ken, Healthy New York was mentioned. As a resident of NY State, this is far and away the best deal I'm aware of for me and my family, so I'd suggest seeing if there's a similar program in your state.

Is anyone here a participant in Medishare? I'm very interested in how that works, how well it's worked out for anyone who's in it, and whether there are other similar organizations.

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Todd Rose
Ithaca, NY

https://www.dreamingrosesecobnb.com/todds-art-music

https://www.facebook.com/ToddRoseGuitars/

Bob and Mike I am available for marriage but be advised I complain a lot.........

I just found this and I think that since the issue of "quality" has been brought up this is interesting:

The World Health Organization's ranking
of the world's health systems.
Source: WHO World Health Report - See also Spreadsheet Details (731kb)

Rank

1 France
2 Italy
3 San Marino
4 Andorra
5 Malta
6 Singapore
7 Spain
8 Oman
9 Austria
10 Japan
11 Norway
12 Portugal
13 Monaco
14 Greece
15 Iceland
16 Luxembourg
17 Netherlands
18 United Kingdom
19 Ireland
20 Switzerland
21 Belgium
22 Colombia
23 Sweden
24 Cyprus
25 Germany
26 Saudi Arabia
27 United Arab Emirates
28 Israel
29 Morocco
30 Canada
31 Finland
32 Australia
33 Chile
34 Denmark
35 Dominica
36 Costa Rica
37 United States of America
38 Slovenia
39 Cuba

Well we have Cuba beat.......

SPED teacher to the rescue

Nervous twitching is technically "neurotic twitching." It's a self-regulating behavior on the spectrum of tic disorders. I have Tourette's and tic my shoulders a lot, sniff, that kind of thing. Thankfully most people just think I'm stretching or ask if the clorox smell is bothering me. A misconception about Tourette's is the cussing thing---not the case the majority of the time.

A lot of people bounce their leg as a self-regulating behavior (a form of tic in this case). That's what the whole nervous leg thing is about. You know, you'll be in a meeting and notice your heel pumping up and down. It can get in the way of a person's self-perception if they have enough negative experiences.

I wouldn't be surprised if the medicine is just an alpha 2-adrenergic agonist like Tenex with a new name.

I've never taken medicine because my tics are so mild and infrequent, but it can be very effective for some people.

Then why do so many people travel half the world to get HERE for their specialized care?

True Mike but many Americans also seek health care abroad now too.

Don't get me wrong my intent is not to assign a value judgment here and I would hope that most members are mature enough to recognize this. Posting the WHO report is information and information alone. It's validity is certainly as solid as the reader wants to make it - or not. But it is information and as such it interests me for better or for worse.

Thanks James my friend for explaining nervous leg syndrome to me. My leg twitches when I hear the term BRW.....

My perception is that many, who leave the US to seek treatment in another country, are seeking treatment unapproved here. Not saying whether that's good or bad. In some circumstances, I suppose ,one will do what they have to do.

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Waddy

Photobucket Build Album Library

Sound Clips of most of my guitars

Mike,

I really can't tell you the details on that kind of question. Health care is a significant part of the budget and the details are available for anyone who wants to look it up.

If we frame it in the context of the current discussion, consider the entire nation as one pool of ensured, and the premiums are worked into your taxes.

How fast you get your service really depends upon how urgent your need, the availability of supply of medical care, and your relationship with your doctor (and how well you get along with their receptionist).

There is a big push to getting more doctors and nurses on line. Our province just admitted it's largest ever class of future doctors, and more nurses are being trained all the time. Still, many doctors and nurses follow the money, many don't want to do family practice, or work in rural areas. An aging population and increasing expectations of what should be provided (especially the expensive tests) all place higher and higher demands upon the system. I'm sure that this is a problem that is not unique to us.

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Expectation is the source of all misery; comparison the thief of joy.
http://redrivercanoe.ca/

I think the quality of care you get here in the states is top notch, but it's the cost and bureaucracy that puts it to the bottom of the WHO list. The people coming here from other countries pay big bucks to do so.

Money talks........ you know the rest.

I have to say this has been a very informative thread. I can see some of you have really been doing the research.

Thanks.

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Horton, MI