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| Author: | Tefo22 [ Mon Nov 09, 2020 6:52 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Les Paul refinish help |
Hi guys, I’m currently in the process of refinishing my Les Paul, I’ve removed the black poly finish and it appears this finish seeped into the maple veneer and has stained it black. Is there any way I could get this stain out of the wood as I’m hoping to refinish to a tobacco burst? I don’t have a clue how to link pics so I’ve included a text link to a pic on Flickr. Thanks in advance! https://flic.kr/p/2k4YmEN |
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| Author: | Glen H [ Mon Nov 09, 2020 7:12 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Les Paul refinish help |
Looks like a stain or dye. Someone may have an answer but in all my attempts at that type removal I have only succeeded with sandpaper and elbow grease. I would not do either on a veneer and would not do again on even solid wood. Too much work. |
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| Author: | Mike_P [ Mon Nov 09, 2020 7:22 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Les Paul refinish help |
first, you state it's a Les Paul...is it? made by Gibson, not some copy that looks like a Les Paul? I just don't see Gibson using veneer...sure, maybe more than 2 pieces on a painted top, but not veneer second, why would anybody apply veneer to a painted top? the only reason I can think of is it's let's say an Epiphone and their production line is set up only for veneer (which they use quite prolifically on their sunburst models) and they just use unfigured veneer and then paint it... point being, what makes you think it's veneer? |
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| Author: | Tefo22 [ Mon Nov 09, 2020 7:28 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Les Paul refinish help |
Mike_P wrote: first, you state it's a Les Paul...is it? made by Gibson, not some copy that looks like a Les Paul? I just don't see Gibson using veneer...sure, maybe more than 2 pieces on a painted top, but not veneer second, why would anybody apply veneer to a painted top? the only reason I can think of is it's let's say an Epiphone and their production line is set up only for veneer (which they use quite prolifically on their sunburst models) and they just use unfigured veneer and then paint it... point being, what makes you think it's veneer? It’s an Epiphone Les Paul 56 standard pro, just checked and it states it’s a mahogany body with maple veneer top |
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| Author: | Chris Pile [ Mon Nov 09, 2020 8:37 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Les Paul refinish help |
With stain that dark, I think you are fighting a losing battle. Not even the best wood bleaches or even sanding will get that out (in my experience). Epiphone did not seal the top first before staining, so you are going to have to go back with a solid color, or just put clear on it and live with it. Sorry, that's the breaks. |
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| Author: | Freeman [ Tue Nov 10, 2020 12:35 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Les Paul refinish help |
I guess I have a couple of questions. First, have you confirmed that it really is a veneer rather than a full thickness maple cap? You should be able to look at the edge of the p/u cavities or the pot holes and tell. If it is a maple cap then it should be thick enough to sand. If it is veneer I'm curious why a manufacture would even do that - veneering a compound curve is not all that straight forward, then to turn around and stain it and then paint a black finish over that. Why not just put the black paint over the body? |
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| Author: | Tefo22 [ Tue Nov 10, 2020 6:20 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Les Paul refinish help |
Thank you all for your advice! Just checked the p/u cavities and there’s no evidence whatsoever of a cap. Today I did a light sand with P600 and followed up with three coats of a 50/50 mix of household bleach/water - these are the results so far https://flic.kr/p/2k5kcCc |
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| Author: | Mike_P [ Tue Nov 10, 2020 7:03 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Les Paul refinish help |
Freeman wrote: I guess I have a couple of questions. First, have you confirmed that it really is a veneer rather than a full thickness maple cap? You should be able to look at the edge of the p/u cavities or the pot holes and tell. If it is a maple cap then it should be thick enough to sand. If it is veneer I'm curious why a manufacture would even do that - veneering a compound curve is not all that straight forward, then to turn around and stain it and then paint a black finish over that. Why not just put the black paint over the body? as the OP posted, it's an Epiphone and spec's from them indicate it has a maple veneer over a mahogany body...so it sounds like my premise is correct (that a producer is already set up for mass use of veneer in this fashion and finds it easier to just do it on all of them) face it, there is less finish time dealing with a maple veneer as opposed to having to grain fill mahogany...and that concept probably tilts the cost factor in favor of veneer I must say Epi puts out some really nice looking quilted maple veneer products, and traditionally that is one of the big uses of veneer (stretching out the use of very figured woods..in addition one can start bookmatching and making patterns using consecutive pieces) it would also appear that it the black paint itself which has affected the veneer, and since it is of course very thin it's just not going to sand out without going through to the mahogany substrate...it might turn out to be a rather interesting finish effect when tinted over it, who knows? |
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| Author: | Chris Pile [ Tue Nov 10, 2020 8:25 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Les Paul refinish help |
Quote: Today I did a light sand with P600 and followed up with three coats of a 50/50 mix of household bleach/water - these are the results so far https://flic.kr/p/2k5kcCc So basically - no measurable change. |
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| Author: | Tefo22 [ Tue Nov 10, 2020 8:35 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Les Paul refinish help |
Chris Pile wrote: Quote: Today I did a light sand with P600 and followed up with three coats of a 50/50 mix of household bleach/water - these are the results so far https://flic.kr/p/2k5kcCc So basically - no measurable change. I’d say there’s measurable change - not much but it’s a start. Here’s a side by side https://flic.kr/p/2k5mAtf |
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| Author: | Conor_Searl [ Wed Nov 11, 2020 2:54 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Les Paul refinish help |
You're probably getting pretty close to being able to make that maple work with a darker tobacco burst. |
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| Author: | Tefo22 [ Wed Nov 11, 2020 6:37 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Les Paul refinish help |
Today’s progress update. Got some sanding and filling to do. I’m not sure whether I need to bleach again - everyone’s views welcome! https://flic.kr/p/2k5yJWv |
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| Author: | Freeman [ Wed Nov 11, 2020 6:46 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Les Paul refinish help |
You could do a tobacco burst on that. Are you planning to do it with wiped stains or tinted finish? What kind of finish will you use. What are you going to do with the binding? If you wipe with naphtha it will show you the color that the wood will be under a clear finish like lacquer - that will give you an idea about your starting place and the center of your burst. |
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| Author: | Tefo22 [ Wed Nov 11, 2020 6:58 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Les Paul refinish help |
Freeman wrote: You could do a tobacco burst on that. Are you planning to do it with wiped stains or tinted finish? What kind of finish will you use. What are you going to do with the binding? If you wipe with naphtha it will show you the color that the wood will be under a clear finish like lacquer - that will give you an idea about your starting place and the center of your burst. The plan is for a tinted finish but I’m undecided on either tobacco or bourbon burst. As for the binding I haven’t put much thought into it, possibly finish first then decide whether to add when I see how it looks? |
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| Author: | Freeman [ Wed Nov 11, 2020 7:43 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Les Paul refinish help |
Any time I do a "complex" finish (and I consider any sunburst complex) I like to experiment on scrap of the same wood that the guitar is made out of. Unfortunately you don't have that option and you've already sanded back as much on that veneer as you are going to be able to - in other words if you shoot something and don't like it you might not have any options. I think of tobacco burst as being pretty amber in the center with a dark rim, bourbon as being a bit darker into the center (and often some brown highlighting the flame of the maple). I'm going to sit back and watch and see how you do it. As far as the binding - its hard to tell from your picture but it looks like it has a lot of black still left in it. That should scrape back to the original cream, but maybe you should wait until you have shot your dark edge colors. I usually mask the the tall side edge of plastic binding and just scrape the top edge. |
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| Author: | Tefo22 [ Thu Nov 12, 2020 4:44 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Les Paul refinish help |
Any idea on next steps from here? I’ve sanded twice and think I’m getting pretty close to a stage at which I’d be happy to start painting https://flic.kr/p/2k5QFT9 |
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| Author: | Chris Pile [ Thu Nov 12, 2020 4:55 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Les Paul refinish help |
You need to tell us what colors and finishes you want as the complete project. |
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| Author: | Tefo22 [ Thu Nov 12, 2020 5:01 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Les Paul refinish help |
Chris Pile wrote: You need to tell us what colors and finishes you want as the complete project. I’m hoping to be along the lines of this in terms of colour, however starting black/very dark brown fading into that great brown colour https://flic.kr/p/2k5UPWt |
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| Author: | Chris Pile [ Thu Nov 12, 2020 6:38 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Les Paul refinish help |
Might be doable. Good luck. |
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| Author: | Freeman [ Thu Nov 12, 2020 10:18 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Les Paul refinish help |
That guitar has a whole lot of flame in the maple, yours does not. I can tell you how I would approach it but the important thing is that I would be practicing on scrap. I would probably be using stains directly onto the wood, which is both dangerous with your thin veneer and you say you want to do the burst in the finish. Tell us again what finish product you plan to use (nitrocellulos lacquer, French polish, some sort of catalyzed poly, what kinds of stains or dyes, and how you plan to apply it (spray gun which you have a lot of experience with, rattle cans, hand applied.....). What is your experience level..... As Chris says, that might be doable. |
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| Author: | Tefo22 [ Fri Nov 13, 2020 4:14 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Les Paul refinish help |
Freeman wrote: That guitar has a whole lot of flame in the maple, yours does not. I can tell you how I would approach it but the important thing is that I would be practicing on scrap. I would probably be using stains directly onto the wood, which is both dangerous with your thin veneer and you say you want to do the burst in the finish. Tell us again what finish product you plan to use (nitrocellulos lacquer, French polish, some sort of catalyzed poly, what kinds of stains or dyes, and how you plan to apply it (spray gun which you have a lot of experience with, rattle cans, hand applied.....). What is your experience level..... As Chris says, that might be doable. I’m aware mine doesn't have the flamed grain but I think the colours would look great and a bit different with the grain on my guitar, I’d like to use nitrocellulose rattle cans and in terms of experience, I’ve sprayed tables, mirrors etc but all with rattle cans rather than a spray gun |
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| Author: | Freeman [ Fri Nov 13, 2020 12:12 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Les Paul refinish help |
OK, I won't be of much help then. I've never tried to spray a burst using rattle cans - I know people do it but since I haven't my only suggestion is to practice on something similar to your wood. A couple of minor suggestions, get the little aftermarket nozzles that StewMac sells for their rattle cans or something similar, they give much better control of the pattern. And I find shooting a 'burst is easier if the guitar is laying flat on its back on a short stool or table so I can walk around it and either shoot from the outside towards center or towards the edge depending on how I'm trying to feather the spray. I neve could shoot anything hanging. Also, if you wipe the top with naphtha it will show you the basic color that you are going to get with clear finish and how much the grain is going to pop. You can use that to judge how much amber or brown to add to get the colors you want. |
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| Author: | Tefo22 [ Fri Nov 13, 2020 2:46 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Les Paul refinish help |
Thank you for that. As for wiping with naphtha, am I right in saying Ronson lighter fluid is the same product? |
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| Author: | Freeman [ Fri Nov 13, 2020 3:48 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Les Paul refinish help |
Yes, lighter fluid, white gas, Coleman fuel are all the same thing. You can also use denatured alcohol for the wipe. Its just a solvent that soaks into the wood and highlights the color and grain. Its common when you are buying wood to have it wiped with naphtha to see what you are getting. That will let you decide if the base wood is amber enough to get the effects you want or whether you will need to do any staining. |
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| Author: | Mike_P [ Fri Nov 13, 2020 5:41 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Les Paul refinish help |
https://preval.com/ I've used those a few times in the field for touch up work when I felt it wasn't worth it to set up my spray system...not all that pricey and you would be able to use toned lacquer with your desired custom mix...they work pretty darned well |
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