Official Luthiers Forum!

I just checked the moon phase. I'm surprised that it's just the 1st quarter.

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GregH
Fot Wuth

No i do not resaw my own backs sides and tops because I don't have the equipment or can afford a bandsaw thats capable of doing so. Besides that question is silly. When you buy a top, back or sides it is still pretty raw and needs handwork before it will become anything of purpose just like all milled lumber. Just because i didn't plant the seed that became the tree, then milled the tree into the lumber i need doesn't mean if i build with that lumber it's not handmade. When it comes down to it a guitar neck is about 50% of the guitar. So how much of that guitar is handmade now ? I built a small table once with cabriole legs and i admit I messed the first set of legs and had to do it over to get it right. I could have just bought legs because they are avaiable in the wood working mags. But if I did that I might as well buy a table from ikea and just tell everyone yeah i made that just because i put it together. Buy the way I never said your cheating MichaelP I said I'd feel like I cheated. When it came to my question about the worksharp unit I just wanted to know if anyone had one and if it was a well built machine. From that people took it on their own to assume I didn't know how to hand sharpen or was lookin for the silver bullet all from a simple question. By the way i do know how to hand sharpen.

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Guitars, guitars and more guitars.

Wow, starting to sound like a "do you farm out your finishing" thread--PLEASE STOP

Hey,
Who's bashing. I knew nothing of the move and I want to do business with the man. Chill out

By 'problems', I got the sense that that something was preventing my ability to order from him. Some of you guys are wound way too tight.

[QUOTE=bob J] By 'problems', I got the sense that that something was preventing my ability to order from him. Some of you guys are wound way too tight.[/QUOTE]

Perhaps I'm wound too tight. Such is life.
It still boggles my mind that you got a "sense" that something was preventing your ability to place and order, yet you've never tried. How hard could it possibly be to contact John to see if he's taking orders? Instead you go to a public forum and say that there are problems with this business.
John's got the ability to let things slide much better than I. Because if someone said there were problems with my company without ever, ever contacting me, I'd be PI@#@D.

I'll save you the time to look up the definition of LIBEL.
2 a: a written or oral defamatory statement or representation that conveys an unjustly unfavorable impression b (1): a statement or representation published without just cause and tending to expose another to public contempt (2): defamation of a person by written or representational means

@ bob j:

I have been a member of a certain forum for a very long time....what has happened in this thread is very typical of the responses given when a member of good standing appears to be 'attacked'...i.e. other members will immediately jump in to defend the character of the 'attacked' member because of their positive feelings towards him/her...

your generic use of the word 'problems' in your post is what garnered the defensive responses...I for one will take the amount of responses to indicate that John Watkins is a hell of a guy and would be a great person to do business with

First I was not involved on the sharpening thread. What I read leaned more to expressing that the money required for the machine could be saved if you used the scary sharp system. I noticed no one chastising you.

My point in my last post was that we who sell our work are in this not just for art, though that is the driving force for me, but we also have to be wise businessmen. Economically using John's cnc necks makes sense for me due both to their quality!!!! and price. If the neck was not up to the standards I require then I would not use them. Also that the vast majority of us that do use them can and have carved long before John's cnc semi-custom neck were available. And presuming we use them because we can't is not knowing the whole story.

Wow!! you just said that a neck is 50% of the guitar so the use of CNC'd necks makes my guitars only 50% hand crafted.

So in your opinion please answer this question. If a cnc neck is equal in all quality issues and appearance of a finest handcrafted necks does the fact that the neck was not hand carved diminish the the guitar?

You know there was a time when the same thing was said about bolt on neck vs. dovetail necks, when drum sanded prelim thicknessing vs. hand planed are used, when fox bender vs pipe benders are used. All seems a bit silly now since the final product is really what maters.

I love to carve, but I offer my work at very competitive pricing. If I can buy a cnc neck that meets and or exceeds my quality requirements less than I can produce the same neck for then I will take advantage of that.

If semi finished bodies were available, would I use them. No for that is where the builder will make make the difference. Yes the neck is part of the equation. Weight, strength, quality of materials and shaping all play a part in the guitar. But I assure you John's neck meet and exceed all the requirements for a superb neck. So I make no claim to my clients that I hand carved each neck. Some I do, as John does not offer the options needed for some of the necks I build. However I have no guilt about using those that do. If that makes me only a half handcrafter in your eyes, then so be it. It is not a problem for me.

I am not really wanting to be confrontational here but more than luthiers read this forum. Many of my clients have found me via this forum. and the inference that a guitar made with one of John's neck is less than a hand crafted instrument is an direct cut at my work. and I have a hard time taking that lightly because such an inference can have a impact on my business.

I am not mad or really even irritated but I must defend myself and in turn those others of us that use John's necks and set the record straight that I (we) use John's neck because they are superb quality and economically wise. not because we can not carve. Also to do so where I can save labor and put it where it would really make the difference in the guitar, in the body, voicing and joinery, while keeping my cost down which in turn is passed on to the client.

Guys it's Christmas let's be cool - please?

I am sure that Bob meant no harm in his original post.  Sometimes this place gets to be a bit of an extended family of sorts and some of us, myself included, drop the formalities which can lead to misunderstandings.

John is a friend of mine but so too is Bob and no harm was intended.  And, if one reads this entire thread, John ended up with many ringing endorsements including one from me too.  His offerings are second to none and he is one hell of a good man too.

One of the things that "may" be different about the OLF is that many of us get to be more than on-line friends.  We get together and interact and at times become the best of friends.  Those defending John - my hat is off to ya for your loyalty to our friend John.

So guys no foul now, it's worked out, there was no malice of intent, which by the way is an element that must be present for a successful libel suit.

Peace bros.

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Ann Arbor Guitars

As the stomach churns...

Y'all are way wound up. I saw nothing from anyone that was in any way "bad". It looks like John didn't take anything "bad". but again, some feel they must get upset -for- him. Can we please let the "attacked" be the one to decide if he should or shouldn't be upset?

And for the record, I wasn't cutting down anyone for using CNC parts. I was poking fun at the thread. Fun. Eff You En. Fun!

And yes, I have cut my logo, over 70 times. Yes, now it's done by CNC for me, but I still inlay them into the headplate, and I can still cut one if I have a request for a pearl of different color or figure. Takes me under 10 minutes to cut, so even counting my time, it does cost more to have them CNC'd. But I was growing tired of it and the CNC is so consistent....

6-8 hours to carve a neck!?! I have that down to 45 minutes or less... Honest.

We've been round-and-round this topic before (as mentioned above) but....

[QUOTE=MichaelP]
Wow!! you just said that a neck is 50% of the guitar so the use of CNC'd necks makes my guitars only 50% hand crafted......
[/QUOTE]
If carving the neck were truly 50% of building a guitar, yes.
[QUOTE=MichaelP]
So in your opinion please answer this question. If a cnc neck is equal in all quality issues and appearance of a finest handcrafted necks does the fact that the neck was not hand carved diminish the the guitar?
[/QUOTE]
It does not 'diminish' the guitar in any way; but it does reduce the amount of 'hand-crafting' in the instrument.

[QUOTE=MichaelP]
I am not really wanting to be confrontational here but more than luthiers read this forum. Many of my clients have found me via this forum. and the inference that a guitar made with one of John's neck is less than a hand crafted instrument is an direct cut at my work. and I have a hard time taking that lightly because such an inference can have a impact on my business.
[/QUOTE]
Michael, surely you cannot disagree with the statement that a guitar with a CNC'd neck (bridge? headstock overlay? etc etc) is less than 100% hand-crafted?
This sort of thing only gets to be a 'problem' when builders make a big deal out of the 'hand-crafted' aspect of their instruments, and conveniently 'leave out' mention of 'farmed out' instrument parts/processes which they have not made.
It's just a matter of being consistent and open about one's work. If we put 'hand crafted' in our business or website name, we should specify which parts we don't make.

Cheers
John

[QUOTE=grumpy]..6-8 hours to carve a neck!?! I have that down to 45 minutes or less... [/QUOTE]

Heck, Mario, I'm a rookie and I don't think it takes me more than a few hours to carve a neck. In the 'beginner' building class I took, none of the students took more than a day to shape a neck by hand, ready for finish- with volutes. Jean Larrivee has said he could shape a neck in a few minutes- and Sergei deJonge (who worked with Larrivee in the early days) confirms this- though Sergei says Jean L. is the fastest worker he's ever seen.

Cheers
John

Grumpy that time included prepping the materials such as laminates if I build the up block, gluing up (not counting cure time) band sawing (I do mostly non glued up heels) planing and carving. But I have to admit to being a slow carver. I probably spend 2 hours shaping the heel. I tend to get a little (body region expletive deleted) about the heel to beam transition. Shaping the neck beam profile is a breeze and I have jigs for the peghead.

[QUOTE=JohnAbercrombie] We've been round-and-round this topic before (as mentioned above) but....

[QUOTE=MichaelP]
Wow!! you just said that a neck is 50% of the guitar so the use of CNC'd necks makes my guitars only 50% hand crafted......
[/QUOTE]
If carving the neck were truly 50% of building a guitar, yes.
[QUOTE=MichaelP]
So in your opinion please answer this question. If a cnc neck is equal in all quality issues and appearance of a finest handcrafted necks does the fact that the neck was not hand carved diminish the the guitar?
[/QUOTE]
It does not 'diminish' the guitar in any way; but it does reduce the amount of 'hand-crafting' in the instrument.

[QUOTE=MichaelP]
I am not really wanting to be confrontational here but more than luthiers read this forum. Many of my clients have found me via this forum. and the inference that a guitar made with one of John's neck is less than a hand crafted instrument is an direct cut at my work. and I have a hard time taking that lightly because such an inference can have a impact on my business.
[/QUOTE]
Michael, surely you cannot disagree with the statement that a guitar with a CNC'd neck (bridge? headstock overlay? etc etc) is less than 100% hand-crafted?
This sort of thing only gets to be a 'problem' when builders make a big deal out of the 'hand-crafted' aspect of their instruments, and conveniently 'leave out' mention of 'farmed out' instrument parts/processes which they have not made.
It's just a matter of being consistent and open about one's work. If we put 'hand crafted' in our business or website name, we should specify which parts we don't make.

Cheers
John[/QUOTE]

This is posted in good humor but with honest sincere conviction
First: in my opinion caving the neck is not even 1/5th of the skill I but into making a quality guitar. Ok it is not 100% hand crafted but if you don't do every stage for every component from billet forward using the reasoning you are, very few of us get 100% hand crafted.

Mike wrote that you needed to put hand work into every part to be considered hand crafted. Well actully there is hand work I put into John's necks. Some has to do with final beam profiling, Peghead shaping, fitting, to the body, fretboarding, finishing and other things.

Now here are a few questions I present to every one and I want you to be dead honest here.

)These questions are intended to be interspective not confrentational, as I assume your were to me.)

Is an 600% hand crafted guitar a hand crafted guitar?

Is an 80% hand crafted guitar a hand crafted guitar?

Is an 90% hand crafted guitar a hand crafted guitar?

Does the fact that I use John's cnc'd semi-custom necks make me a fraud if I claim to build hand crafted guitars?

Best look hard at these questions because the last two are the kickers.

Where is the percentage cut off to be considerd a hand crafted guitar?

Do yours meet the cut off?

Personally I do not hold the ability to hand craft the neck paramount to producing a hand crafted guitar. While a un-true, miss shaped, warped CNC neck will ruin a guitar the same could be said of a hand carved in the same state. There are far more skills required to properly joint, brace, voice and intonate a guitar than to carve a neck.

Really guy my response to all this is not as fire breathing as it may seem. I am a hard guy to rattle. but to claim (direct personally or not) that someones work is not hand crafted work based on the use of a single cnc'd part is a slippery slope I don't think we want to go down.

[QUOTE=MichaelP] First I was not involved on the sharpening thread. What I read leaned more to expressing that the money required for the machine could be saved if you used the scary sharp system. I noticed no one chastising you.

My point in my last post was that we who sell our work are in this not just for art, though that is the driving force for me, but we also have to be wise businessmen. Economically using John's cnc necks makes sense for me due both to their quality!!!! and price. If the neck was not up to the standards I require then I would not use them. Also that the vast majority of us that do use them can and have carved long before John's cnc semi-custom neck were available. And presuming we use them because we can't is not knowing the whole story.

Wow!! you just said that a neck is 50% of the guitar so the use of CNC'd necks makes my guitars only 50% hand crafted.

So in your opinion please answer this question. If a cnc neck is equal in all quality issues and appearance of a finest handcrafted necks does the fact that the neck was not hand carved diminish the the guitar?

You know there was a time when the same thing was said about bolt on neck vs. dovetail necks, when drum sanded prelim thicknessing vs. hand planed are used, when fox bender vs pipe benders are used. All seems a bit silly now since the final product is really what maters.

I love to carve, but I offer my work at very competitive pricing. If I can buy a cnc neck that meets and or exceeds my quality requirements less than I can produce the same neck for then I will take advantage of that.

If semi finished bodies were available, would I use them. No for that is where the builder will make make the difference. Yes the neck is part of the equation. Weight, strength, quality of materials and shaping all play a part in the guitar. But I assure you John's neck meet and exceed all the requirements for a superb neck. So I make no claim to my clients that I hand carved each neck. Some I do, as John does not offer the options needed for some of the necks I build. However I have no guilt about using those that do. If that makes me only a half handcrafter in your eyes, then so be it. It is not a problem for me.

I am not really wanting to be confrontational here but more than luthiers read this forum. Many of my clients have found me via this forum. and the inference that a guitar made with one of John's neck is less than a hand crafted instrument is an direct cut at my work. and I have a hard time taking that lightly because such an inference can have a impact on my business.

I am not mad or really even irritated but I must defend myself and in turn those others of us that use John's necks and set the record straight that I (we) use John's neck because they are superb quality and economically wise. not because we can not carve. Also to do so where I can save labor and put it where it would really make the difference in the guitar, in the body, voicing and joinery, while keeping my cost down which in turn is passed on to the client.

[/QUOTE]
Michael using cnc parts does not diminish the quality of the guitar in anyway. It does not make it any less as good as one with a hand carved neck in some case it might be better then one that was hand made based on the capabilities of the biulder. But i stick with my statement that you cant call it hand made if your using premade parts. Can taylor, gibson or martin call theirs handmade? I in no way are bashing you or anyone else who uses premade parts. I'm sure john makes a great product. I have supported merchants on here and will continue because I feel I can trust them because if they are not good and reliable they will sure hear about it from the members on here. My statement on my post was If I did "I would feel like i cheated" I in no way mentioned your name or anyone else name. So don't take my statements as something personal.

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Guitars, guitars and more guitars.

When it comes to BobJ post I think it was misunderstood as an attack on John. I did not get that out of it. I think he was stating that there have been some issues with his move and he wanted to know if anyone knew when they would be finished moving.

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Guitars, guitars and more guitars.

I did not mean to imply you you did.

First question should have bee 60% not 600%

[QUOTE=MichaelP] I am a hard guy to rattle. but to claim (direct personally or not) that someones work is not hand crafted work based on the use of a single cnc'd part is a slippery slope I don't think we want to go down.
[/QUOTE]

Michael-
I don't see the problem here.
It's a simple matter to put a paragraph or two on your website or in your literature to explain the work you 'farm out' to others.
If you're not ashamed of using CNC necks (and why should you be?) , then just be 'up front' with it and let your customers know. After all, you could say that you have the necks made to your custom design and specs using CNC equipment to ensure consistency/accuracy, and that you do the final shaping (aka finish sanding) by hand. The same idea applies to folks who farm out their finishing work-just state it right out and play the environmental card on that one.
It's also a form of protection for the builder, I'd think. What if one of your past buyers who thought the guitar was hand-crafted- (100%? 75%?-however the customer interpreted that term) stumbled upon a discussion here where you are talking about getting John to make necks for you?

Better to let folks know straight out, I think. If the customer has a problem with your way of doing things, they can find another builder. After all, there are still builders who don't use much in the way of power tools at all, and I'm sure their customers appreciate that...

Flip open any guitar mag and you can find factory ads with artistically placed chisels and shavings, when you know most of the guitars never see hand work....perhaps customers would prefer some straight talk rather than 'marketing' and 'branding'.

Cheers
John
PS- If I ever get to the point where I'm using a 'standard neck', I'll probably get John or Bob Garrish to make them for me, too. Right now, pretty well every instrument is a bit different from the last, so it doesn't make sense. Also, I don't value my time in the shop very highly in dollar terms- some of this stuff I do for fun.

I do understand your point and my customers do know when I am using one of John's necks and when I am carving my own. And for most of this year all my necks have been carved.

But you never directly answered any of the questions. And there is a good reason why you did not. Not because you were worried you could not live up to your answer. But because it puts a finite judgment on what is a hand crafted guitar is.

Keep in mind I am asking this next question with intent to truly know your opinion. I may or may not use it to make a change in what I call my work. But in any case I ask it to gain information. here it goes.

I build about 50% of the guitars I build each year with necks From John. Should I refer my guitars as somthing other than hand crafted?

I found this on my Mac dictionary.......



So this means that hand made means that you did not use routers, band saws, bent sanders, etc., etc..........  It is also a rather stupid definition IMHO because I certainly would not want a car from Detroit, Japan, Germany, etc. that did not have the benefits of robotic technology in it's manufacture.

The hand made shoes did not do OJ any good either and at the end of the day this discussion is leading no where.

Everyone should do what they wish and enjoy guitar building.

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Ann Arbor Guitars

That should read "belt" sanders - forgive me my post was hand made.....

_________________
Ann Arbor Guitars

Michael-
Sorry, but I thought my post was pretty clear.
In my 'book', if a robot makes a guitar part, then the guitar is no longer completely 'hand-crafted'. It doesn't matter (to me) who does the programming and who pushes the 'GO' button on the robot. I do think that most folks have a pretty clear idea about the meaning of 'hand-crafted' - my car is not 'hand-crafted' even though some of the seat covers may be hand-sewn by a worker at a sewing machine.
Hand-crafted means 100% 'hands on', not 'remote control' manufacture. You gotta state the exceptions, as you apparently do, since you say your customers know when you use CNC'd necks.
So (as of now) my guitars are 'hand-crafted with hand and power tools' with the exception of the tuners, truss rods, strings, and bridge pins, which I buy from outside suppliers.
If (and when) I get ad copy on my website, that's the sort of thing I'll include.
This is getting into the area of theology/philosophy, not building!

I'm outta here!

Cheers
John