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New build started, laminated sides and linings.
https://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=55369		 Page 2 of 2
Author:  Clay S. [ Tue Nov 29, 2022 3:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: New build started, laminated sides and linings.
I've been doing all rosewood veneer laminated sides using3 layers of 0,024 inch thick matched veneers. The finished thickness is a little over 0,070 inches. They don't turn out particularly heavy and the guitars sound about the same as the solid wood guitars I build.
There are so many different ways to do things that results can vary widely. Some of the things I like to do (like drying the veneers just before laminating) other people don't seem to find necessary. I use clamps for laminating rather than vacuum and let the epoxy cure several days before removing them from the clamps.
Author:  Terence Kennedy [ Tue Nov 29, 2022 5:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: New build started, laminated sides and linings.
Interesting, and makes sense. I use cauls and clamps too with unibond 800. Do you thin them with the thickness sander and a carrier board or buy the Rosewood as a veneer.

Any issues with sanding through layers when leveling sides using veneers that thin?

Thanks.
Author:  Clay S. [ Wed Nov 30, 2022 12:45 am ]
Post subject:  Re: New build started, laminated sides and linings.
Hi Terence,
A number of years ago I bought "offcuts" and "overages" - scraps from a person who had scrounged them from a company that made laminated panels for board rooms and such. They are the left over flitch matched veneers. They are old veneers and some are cut thicker than others.
I reassemble them in the same order they were cut. If I get too aggressive sanding them the underlying layer has the same grain and using clear epoxy resin as the glue allows sand throughs to disappear under finish. As I have gotten better at laminating sand throughs are almost a thing of the past. I have been laminating back and side sets for about 20 years and had a few failures in the beginning. Laminating allows me to make a BRW back and side set for less than $100 that behaves much like solid wood.
Author:  Clay S. [ Thu Dec 01, 2022 12:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: New build started, laminated sides and linings.
Hi Terence,
I was up in the shop today and decided to do a "sand through" on a scrap offcut from a laminated BRW back to show what effect it would have on the finished instrument. It hit it with a quick coat of shellac and photographed it wet to make it more like a polished surface. I also stumbled on an old photo of some sand through on a kingwood guitar and will include that also.
I miked some of the side layups I haven't built with - they have probably been laying around for over a year - laminated sides hold their shape incredibly well. They miked out at 0.075 to 0.095 inches before doing any sanding.
With the second picture I tried to show the edge of the scrap so you can kind of gage where the sand thoughs might be.
Author:  Terence Kennedy [ Thu Dec 01, 2022 1:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: New build started, laminated sides and linings.
Thanks!
Author:  Barry Daniels [ Thu Dec 01, 2022 1:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: New build started, laminated sides and linings.
That's nice looking veneer, Clay.
Author:  Clay S. [ Thu Dec 01, 2022 6:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: New build started, laminated sides and linings.
Hi Barry,
When I bought the veneer it was pretty and cheap, so I bought more than I will use at this point. It takes about 17-20 sq ft to laminate a back and side set so I probably have 100 sets worth of BRW, plus a bunch of other veneer species, and of course solid wood sets, and boards to be resawn. gaah laughing6-hehe
I noticed the price of BRW veneer has gotten somewhat unreasonable, but I did notice one BIN auction on eBay that if I were in the market might not be a bad deal - with careful laminating you might get a couple of side sets for a reasonable price:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/295377679377?h ... YRiBaF1CCO
Disclaimer:
I have no affiliation with that auction and do not know the seller.
Author:  RusRob [ Fri Dec 02, 2022 12:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: New build started, laminated sides and linings.
@Clay S.

Clay, Do you have a link to your process? I would like to try and laminate sides at some point but I don't have a bender, (I use a hot pipe bender I made) or a vacuum system so I would be interested in seeing how you do yours.

I don't want to hijack this thread so if you have a link or if you prefer to PM me that would be fine.

Thanks,
Bob
Author:  Colin North [ Fri Dec 02, 2022 12:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: New build started, laminated sides and linings.
No objections to any posts on this thread.
Author:  bionta [ Fri Dec 02, 2022 1:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: New build started, laminated sides and linings.
RusRob wrote:
@Clay S.

Clay, Do you have a link to your process? I would like to try and laminate sides at some point but I don't have a bender, (I use a hot pipe bender I made) or a vacuum system so I would be interested in seeing how you do yours.

I don't want to hijack this thread so if you have a link or if you prefer to PM me that would be fine.

Thanks,
Bob

I recently viewed some videos of a lamination process with a mold and caul by luthier JS Bogdanovic. You might find it informative. He sells the molds for some classical shapes, I think.

https://www.jsbguitars.com

I have no affiliation other than having viewed the videos.
Author:  Bryan Bear [ Fri Dec 02, 2022 5:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: New build started, laminated sides and linings.
Clay, I doubt you remember but many years ago I bought a few Engelman tops from you. We had been talking about your veneer process and you included in the box an off-cut from the waist area of one of your rosewood backs as an example. That laminated offcut ended up being just the right thickness for a shim I use for one of my operations and I am still using it to this day. I call it my Clay shim.
Author:  Clay S. [ Fri Dec 02, 2022 9:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: New build started, laminated sides and linings.
Thank you Colin for no objections to the unintended high jack of the thread - one question lead to another. I'm glad you don't mind the "drift" in the content many of the threads seem to have, so I will answer Bob's question here.
My process is relatively simple - the same block form I use to bend sides with using a heat blanket, I use as a laminating form. I use kerfkore as the clamping caul. I reduce the height of it where i need a tighter bend (waist).
One thing I have found helpful when laminating veneers is to first drive out as much moisture from them using heat just prior to the glue up. This seems to give them more stability. I use West System epoxy with the special clear hardener. I use wax paper as a release agent so I don't glue the veneer to the forms. I allow the epoxy to cure several days before removing the sides from the form. Sometimes I will laminate both sides at the same time by stacking one side on top of the other with a smooth piece of formica between them (as well as the wax paper). The slight difference in size is not noticeable in the finished instrument. I have also made laminating forms by bending Corian over the block form using the heat blanket. Someone (Terence?) drilled holes in their form for clamps, which might be a good improvement rather than propping up the base of the form as I show.
Author:  Colin North [ Sat Dec 03, 2022 3:25 am ]
Post subject:  Re: New build started, laminated sides and linings.
Interesting Clay, thanks for that.
Author:  RaymundH [ Wed Dec 07, 2022 1:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: New build started, laminated sides and linings.
I am in the process of building two guitars using double sides and solid linings. Been using Driftwood Guitar's Youtube series "Building a 3000 Year Old Guitar as a guide.
The rim is exceptionally stiff and the adi top on my 000 taps crazy loud. Look forward to seeing what its sounds like after it's finished.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u1MYMqV ... 5XT1UQGJzK
Author:  Terence Kennedy [ Wed Dec 07, 2022 8:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: New build started, laminated sides and linings.
Here's my rig. I made the cauls by getting close with the spindle sander and then covering them with Behlens Rock Hard putty and clamping them against the form using clear packing tape to keep them from sticking. Clean up the squeeze out after dry on the belt sander. I'll sometimes cover them with a thin layer of gasket cork. Seems to work well for me but just one of many things that work. Form is covered in packing tape as well during the lamination process.

ImageIMG_1096 by Terence Kennedy, on Flickr

ImageIMG_1097 by Terence Kennedy, on Flickr
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