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 Post subject: Bridges
PostPosted: Tue Sep 07, 2021 2:42 pm 
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Koa
Koa

Joined: Sat Mar 09, 2019 4:50 pm
Posts: 1091
Location: Goodrich, MI
First name: Ken
Last Name: Nagy
City: Goodrich
State: MI
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
On violin forums, a bridge post might get traction for a while.

I decided to put steel strings on my arch top. I had them on at first, and switched to nylon. The nylon sounds great, but it is like the Stauffer, but a little different. I made a new tailpiece, a new nut, a new bridge, and got new strings, because I thought I broke the e on the old ones, only to find that it must have unwound from the peg because they were short because of the new tailpiece.

With the bridge still high, and thick, the strings feel and sound stiff. I think I had light gypsy jazz, and now I have the phosphor bronze, with the coating, because I hate how outrageously fast the strings lose their look. Maybe they are a lot stiffer than the gypsy ones were? I can't find where they have their string tensions. I think these are about 148 pounds, the nylons were about 100.

They seem to have opened up dropping down the bridge, and thinning the tops some. I took it off, and really lightened it up, but I haven't strung it back up. The lower string height, and my broken carbide end mills, revealed a couple high frets.

Do you ever notice that bridges on arch tops need a bit of compliance?

You know, like what is built into a violin bridge, or on the adjustable ones? A little compression to let them dig in. This one is Tulip Wood, maybe 25% stiffer or more than the cherry one I made, and it had some compliance built in. I built in some, and I should be able to add more with the holes, and thinning the "spring" on the ends.

27g for the adjustable, 17g for the cherry for the nylons, and 16g for the tulip wood. Yes, it is hollow.

My ears have been bad the last few days. They have been getting plugged up when I sleep; no problem, they pop open when I get up! The last couple days the one doesn't want to pop open. So they might sound better than I think!

Edit, they are XT 80/20 bronze. I was trying to add more zing. My ears don't hear much zing! 140 pounds or so. on a 640 scale.

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 Post subject: Re: Bridges
PostPosted: Tue Sep 07, 2021 4:46 pm 
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Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2005 12:50 pm
Posts: 3865
Location: United States
I have a jazz playing friend who is of the opinion that it's impossible to make an archtop bridge that is too stiff and heavy. I don't go that far. OTOH, the archtops I've seen with very flexible bridges tend to have a 'sharp' and 'tinny' sound. Keep in mind that while both guitar and violin bridge exist to define the vibrating length of the strings by providing a fairly large impedance mismatch, they do work quite differently.

With guitars the primary way the strings drive the top is by vibrating 'up and down', and pulling the top along with them. This is true for both arch top and flat top guitars. Flat tops derive a bit of 'tone color' from the twice per cycle tension change that rocks the bridge fore and aft, and the high pitched 'zip tone' that drives it in a similar manner. These are not operative on a guitar with a tailpiece that takes up the tension unless you thread the strings through something like a classical tie block to provide the break angle.

Violin bows drive the strings across the top, which doesn't produce much in-and-out motion of the top to move air. The sound post imposes a more or less stationary node on the top under the treble foot of the bridge, and the bridge then become a bell crank, converting the crosswise string motion into a vertical force on the bass bar that drives the top to produce sound. The bridge also functions as a filter, with the cut outs producing resonances that enhance or attenuate certain frequencies. These can be 'tuned' to work with the other resonances of the body and air to adjust the response of the fiddle. A violin with a solid, rigid bridge tends to sound pretty bad.

As for your ears: get one of those little rubber aspirator bulbs and rinse them out with a jet of warm water. I got a bad ear infection some years back because my hearing aids didn't allow enough air circulation to dry out my ears, and a fungus set in in the built-up wax. Keeping them clean really helps.


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 Post subject: Re: Bridges
PostPosted: Tue Sep 07, 2021 5:09 pm 
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Contributing Member
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Joined: Tue Dec 17, 2013 10:52 pm
Posts: 2953
First name: Don
Last Name: Parker
City: Charleston
State: West Virginia
Zip/Postal Code: 25314
Country: USA
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
A trip to an urgent care center to have your ear wax removed is money well spent. If I have a stubborn case of swimmer's ear, that's what I do. Less severe cases respond well to the acetic acid drops you get from the pharmacy.


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 Post subject: Re: Bridges
PostPosted: Tue Sep 07, 2021 5:50 pm 
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Koa
Koa

Joined: Sat Mar 09, 2019 4:50 pm
Posts: 1091
Location: Goodrich, MI
First name: Ken
Last Name: Nagy
City: Goodrich
State: MI
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
Ahh. Swimmers ear. That's what it feels like. Sounds like some kind of visit will happen.

I strung it up and it sounds better. Not the great warm sound it has with the Ambra 900s, but even thunder doesn't sound loud today! After playing a bit, the high e went a little flat, and then it did break: right at the post! I've had nylguts on there with no problem. So I had to put the short string on; it can get a couple windings; I have to be sure to tuck it in.

This project has been problem after problem.

Now the e needs more clearance on some notes. It played with the stiff string before I cut the faces of the bridge down, and I even filed some of the frets that were slightly high, and never caused a problem. I have them from a little under 3mm to 2.2, and 2.2 doesn't want to work with the more flexible string. Of course the stiff string didn't want to wind around the post.

I'll have to file the offenders.

I think the bridge is fine. The ears, and the stiff strings are just new to me.

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 Post subject: Re: Bridges
PostPosted: Wed Sep 08, 2021 8:45 am 
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Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Sun Mar 30, 2008 8:20 am
Posts: 5924
Warm mineral oil is a good way to soften and remove wax from ears. While laying on your side put several drops of oil in your ear and allow it some time to work. Rolling to your other side will allow the mineral oil and emulsified wax to flow out of your ear. You can use a bulb ear syringe to flush out the remaining wax with a hydrogen peroxide solution followed by warm water. Do not use hydrogen peroxide on a daily basis as long term use can erode your eardrum.
I never hear much Zing! from coated strings. 80/20 bronze don't seem to have the initial brightness that phosphor bronze strings have ,but seems to hold up longer. YMMV
I kind of go along with Alan's friend and often use a dense hard wood (African blackwood) for bridges on archtop type instruments.


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 Post subject: Re: Bridges
PostPosted: Wed Sep 08, 2021 9:55 am 
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Koa
Koa

Joined: Sat Mar 09, 2019 4:50 pm
Posts: 1091
Location: Goodrich, MI
First name: Ken
Last Name: Nagy
City: Goodrich
State: MI
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
I go in to my doctor today.

The tulipwood is about .76 sg. so it is fairly dense.

They SAY the coatings don't affect the sound. Oh well. I really don't like the coated silver Ambra basses. Well. I LOVE the way they sound, but why not just wind them in silver so they don't turn bronze while putting them on? I'd pay the extra for real silver. They use real silver windings on their bowed strings. Polishing off tarnish is far different from flaked off plating.

Are guitar players that cheap, or is the sound of brass better than the sound of silver? If brass sounds better why not flaunt it, and not bother with a flash plating that doesn't stay on?

Maybe I'll pick up a set of phosphor bronze locally to try if I'm not impressed when my ears clear up!

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 Post subject: Re: Bridges
PostPosted: Wed Sep 08, 2021 9:57 am 
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Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 10:44 am
Posts: 6232
Location: Virginia
I don't know much about arch tops but I have built a Selmer type guitar before and they are all solid bridges but are hollowed out from the bottom presumably to lose weight.

I had ear wax so bad once I could not hear at all out of my right ear. When it was removed, without going into gross details, I was SHOCKED at the size of the plug. And after that walking on the sidewalk and hearing the sand crunch under my shoe was almost deafening :D


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 Post subject: Re: Bridges
PostPosted: Wed Sep 08, 2021 2:03 pm 
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Koa
Koa

Joined: Sat Mar 09, 2019 4:50 pm
Posts: 1091
Location: Goodrich, MI
First name: Ken
Last Name: Nagy
City: Goodrich
State: MI
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
I'm de-waxed! It is interesting to hear where sounds are coming from. With only one ear working, everything sounds like you have an ear bud in it, and you have no sense of direction at all. It didn't get rid of the slight buzz, and they still pop all the time on little hills, but it is a lot better. It is startling to hear immediately.

Oddly enough, I have been hearing tiny things, like seeds hit the floor. Even plugged up. I don't understand that; but if you hear it, and see that it is a seed, you are amazed.

The bridge is fairly light. I haven't been downstairs yet to play it.

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 Post subject: Re: Bridges
PostPosted: Thu Sep 09, 2021 11:41 am 
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Koa
Koa

Joined: Sat Mar 09, 2019 4:50 pm
Posts: 1091
Location: Goodrich, MI
First name: Ken
Last Name: Nagy
City: Goodrich
State: MI
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
Well it DOES sound a lot better! The strings are still stiff, it will take a while to get used to that. I'm not sure about volume; that is something that is impossible to judge playing.

I'm going out to a lumber yard tomorrow. Maybe I can find cool stuff. Looking on line all you see is out of stock. Isn't anyone doing anything these days?

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