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| Never again https://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=54305 |
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| Author: | banjopicks [ Mon Aug 09, 2021 1:08 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Never again |
I recently took on a neck reset job that should have been done 2 weeks ago. First shot I had it pretty good but the guy wanted a shim under the fretboard after it was done. OK, so I though, it was pretty easy to remove the neck and that would be the easiest way to clean the glue before inserting the shim. Wrong, I have glued the neck in 2 more times and each time it's worse. The top is swollen from steaming and the neck is shorter and the truss rod took out the little piece of top around the sound hole. I spoke to the owner and and says to do my best and not worry but I'm losing sleep now. I told him I'm going to leave it alone for a week to get my head straight. That said, I'm not going to work on anybody else's guitars again. Maybe then I can finish my builds and get more experience setting necks. This repairman is no longer in business. |
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| Author: | SteveSmith [ Mon Aug 09, 2021 1:17 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Never again |
I've had a few of those repairs that go badly and felt the same way for a while. Sometimes people will bring something in and it just looks like a can of worms. I still do repairs but I reject jobs I don't want to do and refer them to someone else. |
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| Author: | doncaparker [ Mon Aug 09, 2021 3:33 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Never again |
I think a fundamental question you need to ask yourself is: Do you NEED to make money from this guitar thing? I define "need" as: You need that money in order to make ends meet and provide for yourself and your family. If not, then just focus on the things you like to do, and that you feel comfortable doing. I don't need to make money from guitars, so I just build, I don't repair. I make my living wage doing something completely unrelated to guitars. Also, some repairs are like plumbing. I have basic plumbing skills, but I am nowhere near being a professional plumber. Should I theoretically be capable of doing a lot of plumbing tasks? Sure. But in real life, plumbing has lots of surprises that can turn out badly for a tinkerer like me. So, I shy away from all but the most basic of plumbing tasks. The risks are too great that I will get in over my head, which is heartbreaking. Sound familiar? Unfortunately, if you need to make money at this, you will need to do repair work. The economics of just building, and not repairing, really don't work out for very many people. So, if you need a living wage from this, you need to learn repair skills. |
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| Author: | Chris Pile [ Mon Aug 09, 2021 3:34 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Never again |
Never be afraid to say no to a repair. It's not critical and no one will die if you don't. |
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| Author: | Pat Foster [ Mon Aug 09, 2021 6:45 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Never again |
I did repairs to pay for school, back when tuition could be paid by repairing guitars. Luckily the jobs I botched were junkers I'd bought at garage sales. Not quite so stressful. |
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| Author: | bluescreek [ Tue Aug 10, 2021 7:41 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Never again |
why is the neck shorter? You don't shim the heel you should shim the extension. can you post pics? I am sure we can get you fixed up. I have done well over 1000 resets . and I have seen some bad ones. |
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| Author: | banjopicks [ Tue Aug 10, 2021 7:54 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Never again |
I'll send some pictures when I get back to it. I'm taking a breather and want to think about it and get your input, thank you. The reason it's short is because I've taken so many stabs at it and now it's in the opposite direction so I'll need to add material to start over and maintain intonation. I would rather add a shim than have poor intonation. I was hoping to become the Yamaha neck re-setter in my area before I retire, just for dining out money, the bills will be paid but I need a little more. I only charge $200 and more people want me to do it but after this failure, I'm certainly questioning my abilities. |
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| Author: | Hesh [ Tue Aug 10, 2021 8:54 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Never again |
I feel bad for you Sarge but I still admire you for wanting to learn this stuff. Give it some time and then get it done and be done with it and press on. Don't let this job be the judge of what all repair work is like because it's not. Neck resets are often targeted by novice repair folks as the pinnacle of the trade, they are not. They also are a very small percentage of the business for a busy repair shop. Since they suck up so much bandwidth many Luthiers limit how many we will do in a given quarter, we do this because other jobs are more profitable. And of course there is an opportunity cost to neck resets in that the time it takes me to do one I could have made 6 - 8 people happy with set-ups and made more money too. Only take on work that is predictable. Necks that are not bolt-ons or dovetails were never intended to be reset and there is zero value to a repair person in resetting them only aggravation. You will not do this again, you likely lost money on it as well and that's why we won't ever reset an instrument without a serviceable neck joint. So get out from this one and keep doing repairs you will be a WAY builder because of this and you will have an understanding of the set-up that few builders ever develop. There are lots of set-ups, fret work, bridge reglues that are more predictable, less time consuming and better experience to have than neck resets. |
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| Author: | banjopicks [ Tue Aug 10, 2021 9:10 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Never again |
I think this is very good advice Hesh. I'm on board. What do you think of taking the easy route shaving the bridge and saddle? |
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| Author: | jfmckenna [ Tue Aug 10, 2021 9:55 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Never again |
I've done over 100 neck resets and certainly have met a few that I don't care to ever do again. Mainly those Guild necks, what a PIA. But I am of the opinion that ANYTHING can be fixed and sometimes that means you just have to step back and take another approach to it. |
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| Author: | banjopicks [ Tue Aug 10, 2021 10:00 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Never again |
Well, that was my thought as well, but this one has taken it's toll on me. |
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| Author: | banjopicks [ Thu Aug 12, 2021 11:50 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Never again |
Sin e I have a few days off after getting new choppers, I started preparing the neck joint again. I removed the old shims and did what was needed to get angle back. While waiting for the shims to dry, I actually did some work on my D28 build. I'll be actively build, repairing and posting questions and build related stuff. |
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| Author: | jfmckenna [ Thu Aug 12, 2021 2:14 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Never again |
There ya go. Back in the game. |
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| Author: | SteveSmith [ Thu Aug 12, 2021 2:48 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Never again |
Yep, more than once I've taken a day or two off after something went sideways in the shop. |
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| Author: | banjopicks [ Thu Aug 12, 2021 3:30 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Never again |
Taking it slow this time. |
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| Author: | Hesh [ Fri Aug 13, 2021 3:33 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Never again |
banjopicks wrote: I think this is very good advice Hesh. I'm on board. What do you think of taking the easy route shaving the bridge and saddle? Good sounds like you are back in the saddle Sarge good to see. Shaving bridges has been done for all of time and it's fine if it's "appropriate for the instrument." Now here are some examples of appropriate for the instrument: 1) Cheap, unserviceable instrument that anything we do to them is a last ditch, cost effective and client approved effort to buy time. Would not do it to a prewar Martin or anything vintage and valuable. 2) Even Martin at times builds with various height bridges or they used to do this and you can see some pretty high Martin bridges. We've shaved these too not to delay the need for a neck reset but to get the bridge height more in spec so that a better break angle can happen over the saddle, the true malady that we were chasing. I'm not remembering what kind of guitar this was/is so maybe it it's fine to shave the bridge. We line the top in thick leather and go at it with files and suck. Immobilizing the instrument is key here and go slow and enjoy the process. Saved bridges can still retain an eloquent look if you are inclined to keep that vibe going with your material removal. You also may find that the instrument seems to have opened up tonally too by removing mass from the most valuable real estate on an entire guitar. |
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| Author: | Hesh [ Fri Aug 13, 2021 3:34 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Never again |
One last trick that we do on some guitars to delay the need to reset the neck is to dress the frets with the intent of changing the neck angle of the fret plane only. This means more fret removal near the nut and none near the body. It can get you a bit more neck angle too and in conjunction with bridge shaving can save the day if both are needed. |
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| Author: | banjopicks [ Fri Aug 13, 2021 6:01 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Never again |
I saw someone on YT that steamed the interior of the body and and forced the neck while it cooled and it stays in that position. I guess that would depend on the glue used but he claims to have good luck with it. |
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| Author: | banjopicks [ Fri Aug 13, 2021 10:57 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Never again |
I'm down to about 3/16 here and about a 1/4 over the bridge. How am I doing? I wanted to take shots but my phone doesn't understand me with the new teeth. It used to work pretty good. Attachment: 20210813_112905_copy_360x800.jpg Attachment: 20210813_112905_copy_360x800.jpg
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| Author: | banjopicks [ Sat Aug 14, 2021 9:52 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Never again |
Thus is coming out really good this time., I'll be stringing it up his afternoon and shaping the new saddle. I'm considering making a overlapping saddle because I know I made the neck shorter. I hope that never happens again, live and learn. For the saddle, I'm considering a sandwich rather than opening the slot. What do you think.. |
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| Author: | SteveSmith [ Sat Aug 14, 2021 1:43 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Never again |
I've done the overlapping saddle/sandwich thing before as an inexpensive fix for someone who didn't want to pay to reslot the bridge on a cheap guitar. It worked just fine. However, my preference would always be to cut a new slot if there is enough space on the bridge. |
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| Author: | banjopicks [ Sun Aug 15, 2021 9:02 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Never again |
It would be my preference as well. In the end I just beveled the top as far back as I could and it's good enough for a 12 string. It's not likely to see much play up there anyway. |
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| Author: | banjopicks [ Tue Aug 17, 2021 8:39 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Never again |
It's out of my hands and the customer is happy. I have 2 cheap guitars to practice on before I take another one on. I learned a lot from this.
Take into account the top movement before and after string removal Use a calculator to figure out how much wood to remove and include top movement For my clumsy hands, lay down some blankets and put a glove over the peghead while flossing the neck Don't hold the body in my vise without adding more padding or don't use it at all. |
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| Author: | banjopicks [ Fri Aug 27, 2021 10:00 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Never again |
This had a nice outcome. I told the guy how much I loved his 12 string, and how much I liked my Stagg acoustic after doing some work on it. He called me last night and said after rummaging through his stash, he found a Stagg 12 string that he bought a at a yard sale for $20, asked if I wanted it. Yes indeed, these Staggs once setup properly, are good enough to get me by until I can build something better. Then I will pass them on to someone that needs a starter guitar or just keep them and in open tunings for when I want that. I'm really not that fussy about my guitars and I've had Martins, Gibsons, a Taylor and a Guild. I just don't care anymore and I'm waiting to finish my own guitar which I'm positive I'll be happy with. Until then, Staggs and Yamahas are for me. |
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