Official Luthiers Forum!

So it looks like Stewmac has discontinued their Preservation Polish. What else are you folks using?

Too bad…I liked the way that stuff smelled - probably shouldn’t.

Thanks, M

Have you tried Novus #1 ?


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Jim Watts
http://jameswattsguitars.com

BOSS Guitar Detailer.

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"Act your age, not your shoe size" - Prince

Novus Plastic Polish #1 contains silicone. Any product with silicone will make future finish repairs a real headache. I like naptha (AKA Coleman Camp Fuel) for cleaning. A slightly damp towel should remove whatever the naptha won't.

Every guitar that has left our shop in the past decade has been polished with Dunlap 65. Old school baby.

For really dirty stuff we charge time and materials and here is my approach:

1). Spritzed water. You can remove a ton of heavy crap with jsut a light spritzing or water and repeating a few times.

2). McGuires Fine Cut Cleaner for heavy lifting gunk removal.

3). Naptha has a place in my regime and that's for any sticky stuff, paint, adhesives and very heavy gunk on the back of the neck.

4). Dunlap 65

5). Bill client.

6). Next.

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Ann Arbor Guitars

Oh I should have mentioned we also clean the fret board and condition it too. OOOO steel wool for the board and frets and Howard Feed-n-wax to condition the board and I use it on bridges too.

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Ann Arbor Guitars

Virtuoso Premium Polish and Virtuoso Premium Cleaner.
Not cheap, but I really like it.

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The name catgut is confusing. There are two explanations for the mix up.

Catgut is an abbreviation of the word cattle gut. Gut strings are made from sheep or goat intestines, in the past even from horse, mule or donkey intestines.

Otherwise it could be from the word kitgut or kitstring. Kit meant fiddle, not kitten.

It looks like Dunlop 65 contains Dimethicone, which I think is a form of silicone.

Thoughts?

The Virtuoso products look interesting -

M

Didn't realize that, thanks for letting us know. I haven't had any issues with it though.

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Jim Watts
http://jameswattsguitars.com

I'm a big fan of the Stewmac Presevation Polish. Does a great job cleaning grime and polishing.

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Tony Thatcher
Bozeman, Montana

Back in the day, I used a product called Oz Polish for cleaning guitars. It is very, very similar to Preservation Polish. I see that it is still available.

https://www.amazon.com/Mohawk-Finishing-Products-Cream-Polish/dp/B004NQDUQ8/ref=sr_1_2?crid=UBM5P9WP4MAL&dchild=1&keywords=oz+cream+polish&qid=1628866333&sprefix=oz+%2Caps%2C309&sr=8-2

Maybe we should start a list of alternate products for StewMac stuff, if they keep going down the drain.

Oh bummer. I really liked the Preservation stuff too.

Don't use the Dunlop 65 product - it supposedly has dimethicone as an ingredient. I stick with the Meguiar's Mirror Glaze line. It is designed to work on clear coats and is specifically made for paint shops -- so it will never cause you any issues. Please note that a lot of Meguiar's products do contain silicone - so do research on any product you buy. 3M also has a line of rubbing compounds that are silicone free (Perfect it, Finesse it and a few more). Maybe we're being a bit too careful as regards silicone but I've heard so much stuff from paint shops about staying away from silicone that I'm extremely careful. I really don't know how repair shops would avoid it because it seems so many instruments will have silicone on them. I think the main concern is for folks that do both building and repair.

I tend to not trust places that just rebrand products - I'd rather use paint/automotive quality products that are known to work.

Silicone on a guitar brought in for repair would be difficult to re-finish but it would probably not have so much silicone on it that would seriously contaminate other surfaces in your shop. But if you bring a bottle of silicone polish into your shop, you may end up contaminating everything. I have been really lucky over the years and have only had to deal with some minor issues. But I have read about people having prolonged battles with it.

The Oz polish does not contain silicone and it is made by Mohawk which has been making wood finishing products here in the states for a long time.

Not a problem we've done finish repairs on hundreds of instruments and never encountered any adhesion issues because of the dreaded silicon contamination that we hear or and read about on forums. Not saying it's never happened but I am saying it's never happened to us and we have over 10,000 repaired guitars under our belts.

It's polish not brake cleaner in a busy automotive repair shop that goes into the air and contaminates the neighboring spray booth. We aim it, spray it and wipe it off. We do not spray on bare wood, spray into the air our use it as deodorant although I've considered it since I am slowing becoming a guitar now....

Now let's consider what percentage of guitars ever need finish repairs or refinishing..... I'll add that keeping one's shop clean is pretty helpful in not getting contaminated surfaces in your spray booth as well. We've operated our spray booth in our current location for about 13 years now and I've sprayed Dunlap 65 on over 10,000 instruments and we've never had any finish issues.

Like many things forum vs. real life there are subtleties and caveats that need to be understood and not addressed with blanket avoidance only. There are lots of things in life that can be harmful in one application and a life saver in another.

It's polish, it's tried and true and don't spray it on bare wood....

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Ann Arbor Guitars

I just got back from a two mile and walk and had more thoughts to share.

The information that you read on forums and what works in the real, professional world of Lutherie is not always the same. Seems that some people take certain assertions literally and perhaps without attempting to reason out for themselves what the true intent is. I'm not intending to be unkind or diss anyone but it really is a disservice to tell part of the story and neglect the rest.

Silicon can cause fisheyes and that can be a problem in the refinishing game. True. Silicon has been problematic for some people but I've never known anyone personally and can't comment on their set-up or knowledge of what they are doing.

Lots of guitar polishes over the years including Dunlap 65, Martin, Gibson and others have all contained small amounts of silicon. Why? Because it makes for a better, more effective polish that flashes off nicely and does not leave smears.

I have two full bottles of Stew Mac Preservation polish that we won't use because we think it sucks. It smears and takes longer to remove from the instrument and we have found smears the next day too that reemerge. It may not have silicon in it but it also does not work up to commercial standards in my experience.

Please remember we are the people who did a study of paper towels and examined how they scratch under a microscope..... We can be wrapped too tight too ya know...

It's polish folks and not intended to hose down a guitar in the white before finishing it or to be sprayed on bare wood that someone intends to finish in time, please let's use some common sense..... It's also not intended to be sprayed in the air of the shop like air freshener landing on and contaminating other surfaces.... Its guitar polish.

In around 2007 someone recommended McGuires Quick Detailer as pictured. I immediately bought some and and have been using it ever since. I save it for the higher end stuff I work on such as the I-35 and L-5 I did yesterday. I also use it on my personal instruments.

McGuires the experts in when to use silicon and when not to since part of their claim to fame is producing silicon free products choose to use some silicon in Quick Detailer.

This recommendation to use this product was made by one of my mentors and perhaps yours too, Mario. Mario's right too it's a great product and I also use it on my car with a clay bar. My car may need refinishing if I get in an accident.... Am I concerned? No.

Where people get into trouble with silicon is not segregating the refinishing/spray booth and prep area from where the silicon may be used. In the automotive world brake cleaner is commonly used with 1,000 times the silicon in it that gets atomized and into the air in a facility that may wrench your car on Monday and respray an area on Tuesday. That's a finish contamination nightmare.

A clean, well set-up Lutherie shop is not an auto repair or paint shop nor should it be.

In fact I use many things that someone here without the experience of a working in the trade professional would push back against and be wrong. From steel wool near pick-ups to solvents near finishes we are careful, we take precautions and we give a dang about the valuable personal property of others and you always should too.

So back to the OP and hoping to elevate this seemingly academic and off the mark discussion back to what was originally asked some silicon in polishes is fine and we use it too. Don't spray on bare wood or in your mouth or in the back of your amplifier, it's not intended for that....... Use these products as intended and keep a clean shop and think for your self what the warnings that we all received were really intended to mean and you will be fine.

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Ann Arbor Guitars

Want to sell me your remaining stock of SM Preservation Polish?

M

For the record Hesh, my actual name is Simon Fay. I'm a pretty decent pro builder and have been doing this a long time. I do know my stuff. Silicone is a dreaded thing to spray shops - it isn't just hearsay or anecdotal. In other words, the vast majority of real world professional finishers strongly recommend the complete avoidance of silicone if at all possible. Maybe we are all being way too paranoid but my advice to luthiers is to avoid silicone entirely - just because there are very good product lines out there that don't contain it.

That said, it is great to hear that you've not had any problems with the Dunlop 65 product and it sounds like you've been using it for a long time too.

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Hesh, I don't think we will agree on this topic and that is perfectly okay. It is always helpful to have informed dissenting opinions on any topic !!!

This topic got me thinking and so I've looked into a lot of the guitar polishes out there. It turns out dang near everything has a bit of silicone in it. The Novus plastic polish (popular with French Polishers) has it - although, you can order some without any silicone as a special order. The Virtuoso stuff also has silicone. The Dunlop 65 product has silicone. I imagine most products aimed at cleaning and polishing guitars probably also have a minute amount of silicone as an ingredient.

Silicone is a great additive when it comes to taking care of your finish -- obviously, the only concern is adhesion issues during repair work or possibly introducing contamination into your shop. Autobody shops deal with this all the time as every single care that comes in will likely be loaded with contaminants. I do wonder if we make too big a deal about things. A small amount of contamination is probably not a serious issue so long as it is addressed during prep work. And I imagine that the small amount of silicone in these guitar polishes probably is something that can be managed. I also think a lot of times folks get fish eyes and contaminants not from silicone but from their spray line. When troubleshooting or reading about other people's problems, it is hard to know exactly where things went wrong.

All this to say, I personally like to avoid any silicone products because I have a small shop and I'm strictly a builder. - so decontamination is not something I concern myself with during the finishing process. If you are a repair person, you will have to deal with silicone contamination - there's no way around it. In such cases, wipe down the instrument and clean it thoroughly - then sand and prep the area that need to be repaired and the perform the finish repair. More than likely, you'll be okay. If not, then you can always add fish eye eliminator as a last resort.


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As far as recommendations go, it depends on the finish you use. What works well for urethane doesn't work well for shellac. For automotive finishes (polyester or urethane), use the Mirror Glaze product line from Meguiars. It works well and has no silicone.

For French Polish or oil varnish, I would look into the Novus line. If possible, order some without the silicone.

I don't have a lot of experience with lacquer (only used it once) but I think the Meguiar's would work well.

Another product line I like is 3M's Perfect-It. It is very good for removing scratches but leaves a very good gloss as well. I've never used the Finesse-It but I imagine that would work well as an occasional cleaner.

Personally, I would tell clients to not use polishers and cleaners -- water or naphtha for heavy grime and just wipe with a soft, microfiber cloth.

Fish Eye Eliminator is pure silicone. It turns the fish eyes craters into a continuous coat. Once you go that route you will have to add it to every coat you spray forever because everything in your shop will be contaminated.

Correct, but if your surface is contaminated with silicone and you've tried to clean it and you're still getting fisheye -- then there isn't much else you can do. It is a last resort but it does work. If I had to use fisheye eliminator, then I would spray outside with a spray gun specifically reserved for that purpose -- thus eliminating the risk of shop contamination.

All this begs the question, at what level does the silicone become an issue wherein general surface prep is no longer effective? I honestly don't know. As I mentioned, auto body shops deal with this but they sand and use degreasers, etc...

I buy Dunlap 65 by the case and likely spray a couple cases a year myself. It works great and cleans very well too and we often get comments on how improved some guitars look when the client gets them back.

Small amounts as found in most polishes of silicone should never be a problem in a guitar repair or even a production facility if good prep work as if everything is already contaminated is the law of the land. We've not had any contamination issues and that's even with me in the other room vaping the Dunlap 65....

I've never contended Simon that silicone is not to be avoided when any finishing is happening and I even offered an example of one possible result, fisheyes. So no disagreement here that silicone is a problem with finishing.

My contention is when as builders we learned that silicone can cause fisheyes and contaminate finishes it's my belief that we went too far seeking a complete purging of all things containing silicone. Everything has it's place in anything and this is no different. Polishes contain very little silicone and with proper use should not result in any contamination issues.

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Ann Arbor Guitars

I've been speaking about silicone causing contamination -- I'm not really talking about the silicone in the polish getting from the guitar and "contaminating" your shop. I think that is unlikely unless you are spraying a lubricant with silicone. If you get silicone on your workbench, you can always just wipe it down and sand it (with vacuum attached to evacuate the silicon and dust together) and that would probably take care of all the silicone. What I'm referring to is the polish contaminating the guitar and making future repair work more challenging. Silicone is know to be quite challenging to remove by wiping - a more effective method is likely a full-scale sanding of the entire surface. But maybe most of the silicone is carried away over time by handling (rubbing against skin and shirt, etc...)

Hesh, you may indeed be right that the small amount of silicone in a polish/cleaner won't cause future problems if the guitar needs finish repair. I absolutely would agree that if you are applying the polish on a guitar that such a procedure won't contaminate your shop with silicone. Spraying a silicone lubricant in the same room you are spraying paint is obviously a very different matter and a well known cause of finish problems. If continued applications of silicone containing polishers are applied to a guitar on a regular basic will that cause problems if finish repair is ever needed? Honest question and again - I'm not sure of the answer but given the serious problems silicone causes in the coatings industry, I believe it is wise to exercise caution.

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What I would like to see is a study done in a controlled environment that addresses this very issue. Maybe there is already a relevant study done in the automotive industry - or even better, the wood coatings industry.

So let's say client A polishes their guitar once a month for 30 years and during that time they used Gibson aerosol polish with some silicone or Martin polish also with some silicone or Dunlap 65. Depending on the finish on the instrument, is it hard and tough like say nitro good prep work is going to remove the residue.

We limit the quantity of neck resets that we do because they are not very profitable and have massive opportunity costs for a two Luthier shop with a nine month waiting list... But the guitars that we reset the necks on may get some finish touch-up in the form of over spraying. That's where silicone contamination may occur from a frequently polished instrument that was not prepped properly.

We've never had a single problem with contaminated finishing, not one.

Now Simon you have brought up auto shops twice now and I would suggest to you that it's a different animal and not our situation. We do not repair the brakes on cars and as such don't spray cans of aerosolized silicone brake cleaner that contains 1,000 times more silicone than guitar polish AND is an aerosol producing tiny droplets. Sadly droplets have been in the news for the last year or so and we know that droplets can migrate into unintended directions.

So my point is that our risk of contamination is far lower than an auto shop and our methods to apply polish (non aerosol pump spray aimed directly at the surface) is more controlled too than emptying a can of brake cleaner AND then blowing it out with compressed air - a finishing nightmare.

And that brings me full circle. Modern guitar polishes and McGuires Quik Detailer need not be a problem in a Luthier shop when properly used AND they can add value to your clients and your work.

We've never damaged an instrument or had a single dispute over our work, not one. The only bad reviews that we ever received were five years ago when fake reviewers attacked our website over something Dave said on social media that was political and had noting to do with Lutherie. We have over 400 five star reviews and never received a bad or non-five star review from someone who was actually a client.

I'll add that we don't just repair people's guitars and this includes over a dozen A-listers now we provide a very good experience where we work to foster trust and place our clients at ease that they will receive real value and perhaps, perhaps even a hand with their musical goals too. Our service can be very individualized to match a player's requirements and we are proud of this, we give a poop about people at out place.

With all of this said and I'm not offering it to be defensive to the contrary I'm am detailing for you and others that the entire experience at Ann Arbor Guitars is curated to be top shelf at all times and we would never, never intentionally use any product that was harmful to an instrument, a client or the instrument's future serviceability.

I am sooooo into maintaining serviceability that some folks here on the OLF say that I "smack down" comments here when serviceability is not considered. I remember Rick and Mario doing that too.

At the end of the day Simon we are saying the same things, silicone is a finisher's nightmare and needs to be controlled in it's use and if one can't do that perhaps avoid it. We control our minimal use and enjoy the best of both worlds and it makes us money too and makes our clients happy.

Clean guitars rock too.

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Ann Arbor Guitars

Hesh—

“Please remember we are the people who did a study of paper towels and examined how they scratch under a microscope.....”

So, would you be willing to share the results of the study?