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| 2nd guitar build.... https://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=53924 |
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| Author: | flemsmith [ Thu Feb 04, 2021 6:17 pm ] |
| Post subject: | 2nd guitar build.... |
The one that's supposed to show I've learned how not to make the mistakes I made on the first (which plays and sounds nice, and looks good from 5 feet, closer inspections discouraged. I'm having trouble with keeping the white veneer layer under the rosewood peghead cover clean and white. I stained the neck before mounting the rosewood and veneer, (it's a slot head) but after rasping and sanding the string ramp, I had to sand the slot insides, as well as the outside shape of the rosewood. I did not seal the white layer....and I need to re-stain some areas around the slot head, but I'm reluctant to do any more becase the rosewood sanding dust is staining the white wood strip. I knew I should seal the white layer (shellac?), but I either spaced it, or mebbe thought I could do some rough sanding before sealing the white. So I'm looking for repair advice and/or processes knowlegeable builders use to head off this problem. Thanks for any inputs. Roy |
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| Author: | DennisK [ Thu Feb 04, 2021 7:06 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 2nd guitar build.... |
Usually the solution is to give it a light scraping to remove the contaminated white material, and then carefully seal with shellac. Razor blades make nice mini-scrapers, but you may need something even smaller in such a tight space. |
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| Author: | flemsmith [ Thu Feb 04, 2021 8:47 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 2nd guitar build.... |
Thanks, been trying that with an exacto knife. Guess I'll spend a good bit more time tomorrow (and try to be more careful than is my norm). Roy |
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| Author: | flemsmith [ Tue Mar 09, 2021 9:53 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 2nd guitar build.... |
At the binding and pore filling stages. It's quite clear that I still have a good bit to learn. One thing I'm wondering as I sand the sides after the first Z-poxy application...Should I have sanded the sides first before routing for the binding? I'm getting some low spots in the bent sides that are forcing me to sand almost all the way thru the binding in order to 'level' the sides. I'm considering routing the binding off after the Z-poxy, routing another ledge and putting new binding on, but quite reluctant to do that since I have some nice looking purfling that I'm sure I would damage. Seems like I spend more time repairing things I've done wrong than building. Mebbe the next guitar will show a bit more skill? I did add some steps that are new to me, like building my own neck and bending my own sides and bindings. Just a bit frustrated right now. Roy |
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| Author: | J De Rocher [ Tue Mar 09, 2021 11:06 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 2nd guitar build.... |
I level sand the sides before doing the binding to prevent the problem you describe with the binding and to give a smooth even surface for the bearing on the router bit to ride on when cutting the binding channel. Having to sand almost all the way through the binding sounds kind of extreme. What method are you using to level sand the sides? |
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| Author: | flemsmith [ Tue Mar 09, 2021 2:47 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 2nd guitar build.... |
ok, that makes sense, not sure why I didn't pick that info up already. Seems like I learn and remember best by screwing up. Do you use chalk to make sure everything is perfectly level before you go to the router? I'm doing it manually, using sanding blocks that reach all the way across the sides and an old rolling pin with 220 grit wrapped around it. Honestly, the one place I went all the way thru the binding was at the waist, and it turns out I didn't get the binding as tight to the side ledge as I should have, so 2 things need to improve for the next guitar. I need to learn a better process for tightening the binding, and remember to pre-sand the sides before routing my ledges. I was just counting on the brown Stew Mac tape to hold it tight, and in that spot I needed more pressure. Just finished some patching with mahogony dust and fish glue. Hoping it will be hidden well enough.... Thanks for the input. Roy |
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| Author: | banjopicks [ Tue Mar 09, 2021 3:05 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 2nd guitar build.... |
I'm so tempted right now to by one of those router towers before I finish binding. Getting tired of less than perfect ledges. |
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| Author: | J De Rocher [ Tue Mar 09, 2021 3:45 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 2nd guitar build.... |
flemsmith wrote: Do you use chalk to make sure everything is perfectly level before you go to the router? I'm doing it manually, using sanding blocks that reach all the way across the sides and an old rolling pin with 220 grit wrapped around it. Honestly, the one place I went all the way thru the binding was at the waist, and it turns out I didn't get the binding as tight to the side ledge as I should have, so 2 things need to improve for the next guitar. I need to learn a better process for tightening the binding, and remember to pre-sand the sides before routing my ledges. I was just counting on the brown Stew Mac tape to hold it tight, and in that spot I needed more pressure. Just finished some patching with mahogony dust and fish glue. Hoping it will be hidden well enough.... Thanks for the input. Roy I use China pencils (chalk works too) to draw hash marks all along the sides to monitor sanding progress. Like you, I use sanding blocks. I sand with 3/4 plywood blocks that more than span the width of the sides with adhesive-backed sandpaper on them. The plywood blocks are birch type plywood that has a smooth flat finished surface. There are other methods that work too like using spring steel slats as backing for sandpaper, a random orbital sander, or a motorized rolling pin sander. For a tight binding fit, particularly at the waist, it helps to have the binding bends fit as close as you can get them. That may require some fine tuning on a hot pipe. Other things that help get a tight fit are being meticulous about making sure the binding ledges are clean of any debris and relieving (chamfering) the lower inside edge of the binding. You may already be doing this, but testing your router depth-of-cut settings on scrap wood and then checking how well the binding and purfling fit before routing the actual ledges on the guitar body helps ensure a good fit. |
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| Author: | Clay S. [ Tue Mar 09, 2021 8:24 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 2nd guitar build.... |
One thing I do is take a short scrap of binding and check the binding ledge all around the guitar before attaching the binding. When I find places that it is proud of the ledge I scrape that section of the ledge until the binding is flush. I then go back and do the same for the purfling ledge. It helps. The waist does seem to be the most difficult area to pull in and get tight. Some people "overcut" the binding channel slightly and then sand the sides to meet the binding. I often laminate sides and like to have the bindings as close to flush as I can make them. |
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| Author: | flemsmith [ Tue Mar 09, 2021 10:37 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 2nd guitar build.... |
Those are good inputs, thanks. I've so far been hesitant to rig up a heat pipe, but there's no question but what at least one of my bindings was not eager to fit into the waist even though I'd clamped them in my mold when I took the 'box' out of it. I tried to force it. Plus, I actually purposefully set the binding out side the sides by a few thou. That wasn't so smart, but since I'd cut them on my bandsaw, they were relatively thick. I forget, but seems like over 80 thou. I did test routs on both a scrap piece, and a piece of hardwood I keep and label for that purpose to make sure the fit of the binding and purflings looked right to me. I also took a file to the ledges just to make sure there was no debris. But I didn't do test fits all around the bouts after routing. And I certainly didn't chamfer the inside bottom edge of the binding, not totally clear to me why that is helpful. With my skill set, I'd probably break the dang binding. Is it because that corner is where the cut might not be cleanest? Guess I better learn to use a heat pipe before I get to this stage on #3. Roy |
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| Author: | SteveSmith [ Wed Mar 10, 2021 6:48 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 2nd guitar build.... |
The waist always seems to be a problem area for me too when fitting binding. I also just measure it with a piece of binding and then work it a bit by hand to clean up the channel. I chamfer the inside bottom edge of the binding by scraping with a single edge razor so not much danger of breaking it. |
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| Author: | Ruby50 [ Wed Mar 10, 2021 8:55 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 2nd guitar build.... |
A trick I got here is a 2-1/2" (?) piece of plastic drain pipe (scrap from a construction site for me) and wrap it with spray adhesive and 80 grit paper. This does a great job at the waist. I also use a round faced cabinet file for any thing major |
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| Author: | Clay S. [ Wed Mar 10, 2021 10:33 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 2nd guitar build.... |
After you cut your binding strips you may want to thickness them to uniform thickness and near final thickness using some of the simple methods people have shown here. Breaking the inside corner does make fitting the binding easier. Just as a screw is made to not fit the nut perfectly, relieving the inside corner allows the binding to fit the channel better. You can use the metal end of a heat gun to bend bindings if you don't have a bending iron. I went from using a propane torch stuck in the end of an artillery shell to using a heat blanket for bending sides, so I never invested in a "proper" bending iron. For bending small stuff I use the end of a heat gun. |
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| Author: | Dave m2 [ Wed Mar 10, 2021 12:39 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 2nd guitar build.... |
All the things people have said but I would add that you really do want to get the binding to be a close fit before glueing. You do not want to be trying to force it in - although I do use reinforced packing tape so I can employ a bit of force! I always had gaps until I started bending the bindings with the sides (in a side bender) so they really are pretty much the same shape. Dave |
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| Author: | George L [ Wed Mar 10, 2021 1:08 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 2nd guitar build.... |
Great advice above. Learning by making mistakes is standard, so don't beat yourself up about it. Also, your comment about being "more careful than is my norm" is the key to achieving your best possible results. All in my opinion, of course. Keep thinking meticulous thoughts and you'll be fine. ![[:Y:]](./images/smilies/smiley20.gif "Thumbs Up")
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| Author: | doncaparker [ Wed Mar 10, 2021 2:08 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 2nd guitar build.... |
I think it is important to make perfection the goal, but not let the lack of perfection stop you from moving along. We all get better at any task the more we do it, and that's with making no changes to process. If you add in how we all learn slightly better processes along the way, we can see that a lot of improvement comes from building one with imperfections, then building the next one with fewer imperfections, and the next one with even fewer, and so on. In terms of better processes, I have had to learn the hard way that the best time to get the sides as close to flat and smooth as you can is right before you cut the binding channels. Putting any of that refinement off until the bindings are installed really pushes you toward having thin bindings in some spots. Also, not everyone does it the way I do it, but I now use large silicone rubber bands as the clamps when I glue in bindings. I like them a lot better than any sort of tape. |
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| Author: | flemsmith [ Thu Mar 11, 2021 8:27 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 2nd guitar build.... |
Appreciate all the helpful inputs. I'm gonna practice with some of my (many) reject bindings and my heat gun to see if I can make the waist bend a bit tighter without ruining it. I like that idea. Silicone rubber bands? I'll google and see what I can find out. Don't suppose you have some thread showing how you use them? I've been doing the binding attachement with CA and brown tape, but at the waist I could use a bit more pressure. My little brother used to make bluegrass mandolins. Told me he never actually made one that he thought was error free. Roy |
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| Author: | doncaparker [ Thu Mar 11, 2021 9:48 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 2nd guitar build.... |
This thread has all the info you need regarding silicone rubber bands: viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=48073&hilit=silicone+rubber+bands&start=0 It is helpful to read to the bottom. |
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| Author: | Clay S. [ Thu Mar 11, 2021 10:20 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 2nd guitar build.... |
flemsmith wrote: My little brother used to make bluegrass mandolins. Told me he never actually made one that he thought was error free. Roy +1 But the errors do become smaller and more correctable. Just consider them as a little bit of Wabi Sabi. I've read that some cultures included intentional mistakes in their work, to keep from appearing "god like" (although, I might argue a bit of Wabi Sabi on his part too!  ). It might take a little bit of the sting out of the first mistake that is not easily fixed.https://eclecticmechanicals.com/2018/11 ... erfection/ https://www.amusingplanet.com/2017/08/t ... ction.html |
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| Author: | flemsmith [ Sun May 23, 2021 3:12 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 2nd guitar build.... |
I really don't understand the finishing process. I've read quite a few threads, my first guitar is now my favorite player, but it's a 5 foot guitar at best. Looking thru the poished surface, there are lots of things I can see that look like I moved to the next grit too soon. My second has 16 coats of nitro, cured it for just shy of a month, started wet sanding with 600 grit, now I'm at 1000, and I don't really know what it should look like. Out in the sun, I can still see marks from the 800 direction, and although there are no apparent low spots, there are still little sparkles of nitro that I'm thinking I should be sanding out. The thing is, I dunno how hard to sand, I'm leery of sanding thru on the edges. I did get one of those random orbital long throw polishers, was thinking I'd try using it with StewMac coarse (!?) after 1500 grit. I'll google some more, but if there's a thread written like "Guitar Finishing for the Complete idiot" I'd appreciate a link. I seem to only learn by messing up and trying something different, but I'd prefer not to mess this one up, cause #3 has some expensive wood and I have high hopes for it. Well, relatively high. Thanks for any inputs, Roy |
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| Author: | flemsmith [ Sun May 23, 2021 3:17 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: 2nd guitar build.... |
As an aside, I did buy the silicone rubber bands, and I also tried some small bending adjustments with the tip of my heat gun and a wet strip of T shirt, worked very nicely. Thanks for advice so far, I don't post much, but I do appreciate the inputs when I get stuck. Roy |
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