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| End Graft and binding help please https://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=51143 |
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| Author: | cablepuller1 [ Sun Oct 21, 2018 1:15 pm ] |
| Post subject: | End Graft and binding help please |
hi I see alot of end grafts with black/white/black purfling that is mitre jointed wondering how you do that? I use a laminate trimmer to cut the binding slots here's my end graft and a picture of the mitring I want to do thanks   Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk |
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| Author: | Michaeldc [ Sun Oct 21, 2018 1:30 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: End Graft and binding help please |
This isn't how I do it but since your end graft is already installed this is likely your best bet. I'm assuming your top and back are on? I cant see them in your photo. viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=51056 M |
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| Author: | J De Rocher [ Sun Oct 21, 2018 2:01 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: End Graft and binding help please |
I do it a bit differently from how Robbie shows it in his video. I rout the top or back purfling ledge first like he does, but instead of doing two passes at two depths to cut the binding channel past the end graft, I put a spacer made of the side purfling material on the top or back of the body above the end graft so that the router lifts up by the thickness of the side binding as it passes the end graft and the channel is cut in one pass without having to reset the router depth. I then remove the ramps on each side of the end graft with a chisel and then miter the ends of the end graft purfling with the chisel. The photo shows the spacer made of the same side purfling used for this guitar. There is a strip of double-sided tape on the guitar and the three purfling pieces are CA glued to the tape. Routing past the spacer leaves ramps on each side of the end graft the same thickness as the side purfling. Attachment: Mitered purfling for end graft - routing binding channel.jpg The ramps are then removed with chisel and the ends of the end graft purfling are exposed so they can be mitered. Attachment: Mitered purfling for end graft - ramps next to end graft removed.jpg I install the side purfling separately from the binding since that makes it easy to get really good miter joints at the end graft (and at the cutaway if there is one). Attachment: Mitered purfling for end graft - mitered side purfling installed.jpg
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| Author: | cablepuller1 [ Sun Oct 21, 2018 2:05 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: End Graft and binding help please |
J De Rocher wrote: I do it a bit differently from how Robbie shows it in his video. I rout the top or back purfling ledge first like he does, but instead of doing two passes at two depths to cut the binding channel past the end graft, I put a spacer made of the side purfling material on the top or back of the body above the end graft so that the router lifts up by the thickness of the side binding as it passes the end graft and the channel is cut in one pass without having to reset the router depth. I then remove the ramps on each side of the end graft with a chisel and then miter the ends of the end graft purfling with the chisel. that's a great idea, thanks[THUMBS UP SIGN]The photo shows the spacer made of the same side purfling used for this guitar. There is a strip of double-sided tape on the guitar and the three purfling pieces are CA glued to the tape. Routing past the spacer leaves ramps on each side of the end graft the same thickness as the side purfling. Attachment: Mitered purfling for end graft - routing binding channel.jpg The ramps are then removed with chisel and the ends of the end graft purfling are exposed so they can be mitered. Attachment: Mitered purfling for end graft - ramps next to end graft removed.jpg I install the side purfling separately from the binding since that makes it easy to get really good miter joints at the end graft (and at the cutaway if there is one). Attachment: Mitered purfling for end graft - mitered side purfling installed.jpg Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk |
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| Author: | J De Rocher [ Sun Oct 21, 2018 2:29 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: End Graft and binding help please |
If you decide to try the spacer method here are a couple tips. If your router setup is such that there is significant downward pressure of the router, it might be enough to dislodge the spacer from the tape if you try to route up and over the spacer. As Robbie would say, "That happened to a friend of mine once". I use one of those tower setups and mine isn't counterbalanced so the full weight of the router rides on the guitar body. Having three purfling strips as in the photo, instead of just one or two, helps keep the spacer in place. Also the ends of the purfling strips are ramped to make the transition easier for the router. The other precaution I take is to not rout up to the the spacer and then up and over it. Instead I start the cut with the router positioned in the middle of the spacer and move the router off the spacer onto the body in one direction an inch or two and then come back and route from the middle of the spacer off onto the body in the opposite direction. The spacer stays put that way. When putting a spacer on the top of the body, be careful not to get CA glue into the end grain of the top or it will be permanently discolored. This approach also works of if you want to have mitered purfling joints around a backstrip. You put the spacers on the side of the guitar over the end graft and the router bearing rides up over the spacer in that case. |
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| Author: | Ken Lewis [ Sun Oct 21, 2018 2:47 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: End Graft and binding help please |
I do it like Jay but with no spacer. Just route right up to but not touching the tail purfs, only a very small bit left to remove with chisel with this approach. Either way will get the job done though. |
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| Author: | Aaron O [ Sun Oct 21, 2018 7:54 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: End Graft and binding help please |
I route the ledge first, then install the end graft and purfling proud, trim down the end graft and mitre the purflings. I’ve never seen it done other ways, but then again, I live on a rock.  Of course, I’m guessing jigs like this exist to install the end graft after routing. http://www.luthiertool.com/edge_vise.html |
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| Author: | Terence Kennedy [ Sun Oct 21, 2018 11:18 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: End Graft and binding help please |
I do it like J DeR. |
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| Author: | mqbernardo [ Mon Oct 22, 2018 3:26 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: End Graft and binding help please |
I still haven’t found my ideal way of doing this. Gluing the purflings separately does allow for a much easier mitter cutting but then bending the thin lines is tougher (at least for me). Gluing the purfs to the binding first works exactly the opposite, making cutting nice mitters harder. What I’m thinking of doing next time is to glue the purfling lamination 1st, then gluing it to the binding stock, but leaving an inch or two at the end unglued, so that it’s free and I can mitter it easier. Does it makes sense? OTOH is that a single purf line you have in the end graft? I think mitters work better for wider purfs. I do like your end graft design. |
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| Author: | Terence Kennedy [ Mon Oct 22, 2018 9:48 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: End Graft and binding help please |
The place where the line is visible is in the white or light part of the miter. You may get it perfect at glue up but the line sometimes becomes visible after scraping flush. Has anyone used any kind of white filler to deal with an unexpected gap? I just got some of the white tinting powder for the GluBoost product. I am going to mess around with that on some scrap. |
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| Author: | Michaeldc [ Mon Oct 22, 2018 10:04 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: End Graft and binding help please |
Aaron O wrote: I route the ledge first, then install the end graft and purfling proud, trim down the end graft and mitre the purflings. I’ve never seen it done other ways, but then again, I live on a rock. Of course, I’m guessing jigs like this exist to install the end graft after routing. http://www.luthiertool.com/edge_vise.html Yup... This is how I did it before I bought the above mentioned edge vise from luthiertool.com. Now I do this which I do after the bindings are installed. |
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| Author: | J De Rocher [ Mon Oct 22, 2018 10:33 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: End Graft and binding help please |
mqbernardo wrote: I still haven’t found my ideal way of doing this. Gluing the purflings separately does allow for a much easier mitter cutting but then bending the thin lines is tougher (at least for me). Gluing the purfs to the binding first works exactly the opposite, making cutting nice mitters harder. What I’m thinking of doing next time is to glue the purfling lamination 1st, then gluing it to the binding stock, but leaving an inch or two at the end unglued, so that it’s free and I can mitter it easier. Does it makes sense? OTOH is that a single purf line you have in the end graft? I think mitters work better for wider purfs. I do like your end graft design. To bend the side purflings, I reduce their height before bending. The purflings I buy are typically about 0.110" tall. At that height, they tended to crimp and/or twist when I tried bending them for tight bends. My binding channels are usually 0.070" deep so I run the purfling through my band saw to reduce the height to right about 0.085" which leaves them a bit proud of the sides after they are installed. I sandwich two purfling pieces between to binding pieces, tape them together tightly, and bend them together. The side purfling bends smoothly this way even through the tight bends. I run the purfling through the band saw on a zero clearance support that has the slot positioned 0.085" plus or minus a hair away from the fence. The cut edge is rough but running a razor blade along the length as a scraper smooths it out and that edge goes to the inside of the binding channel. Attachment: Zero clearance support for reducing purfling width 2.JPG
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| Author: | Woodie G [ Mon Oct 22, 2018 12:40 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: End Graft and binding help please |
Similar to some of the advice offered thus far, our approach is to close the body and block sand to smooth and fair, install the end graft with purfing, then rout the binding and purfling channels using purfling-thickness spacer at the tail graft and any other location with miter work. Rather than try to use purfling scraps directly, our spacers are scrap maple 1.5" x 6" strips sanded to correct thickness...easy to make them up when each order of purfling stock arrives (0.040" BWB is never exactly 0.040") or after bending. The mirror polish on the back of a chisel makes trimming the four miters straightforward (see Cumpiano for that technique). We gang-bend side purflings in the Fox bender when using plastic binding and install before the binding. For wood bindings, the purfs get attached prior to bending, so are mitered and fitted with binding attached. Bending can change the dimension of a purfling (heat and moisture, compression and tension), so we check that before committing to a spacer thickness. We consider spacers to be sacrificial, so set them to be partially trimmed away during the end graft or Florentine area rout...this further stabilizes the routing process and avoids any issues with donut design or bit clearances on top-guided binding channel jigs such as the Williams or Ribbeke-style machines. |
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| Author: | mtracz [ Tue Oct 23, 2018 7:25 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: End Graft and binding help please |
This end graft is fantastic! I was going to respond with I do it the same as you guys do but then I saw this one and now you have me thinking about trying something new! The execution is very well done. Super tight and the proportions spot on. Thank you for sharing!!! _Mike |
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| Author: | Woodie G [ Tue Oct 23, 2018 7:38 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: End Graft and binding help please |
mtracz wrote: This end graft is fantastic! I was going to respond with I do it the same as you guys do but then I saw this one and now you have me thinking about trying something new! The execution is very well done. Super tight and the proportions spot on. Thank you for sharing!!! _Mike I would love to see what the side purfling mitered into the end graft purfling would look like...that design is already quite attractive...having those white purfling lines flow around the graft would be an interesting effect. |
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| Author: | Michaeldc [ Wed Oct 24, 2018 10:05 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: End Graft and binding help please |
This will be obvious to many and hopefully helpful to some. It takes about 20 minutes once you've done a couple. |
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| Author: | mountain whimsy [ Wed Oct 24, 2018 10:47 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: End Graft and binding help please |
Right on!! |
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| Author: | bcombs510 [ Wed Oct 24, 2018 12:55 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: End Graft and binding help please |
This time is a first for me doing the purfling first then the binding, but it made the miters a lot easier for me. I was able to get it all lined up and ready, then tack on with CA. Thanks for the help from various threads on this topic. I liked the results. The spacer is HDPE that is 0.070 thick and the same height as the binding.     Brad Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro |
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| Author: | Michaeldc [ Wed Oct 24, 2018 1:11 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: End Graft and binding help please |
bcombs510 wrote: This time is a first for me doing the purfling first then the binding, but it made the miters a lot easier for me. I was able to get it all lined up and ready, then tack on with CA. Thanks for the help from various threads on this topic. I liked the results. The spacer is HDPE that is 0.070 thick and the same height as the binding. Brad Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro Looks nice and clean! |
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| Author: | meddlingfool [ Fri Dec 14, 2018 1:29 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: End Graft and binding help please |
Very nice both Brad and Michael! I did a similar one recently and was surprised that it actually was easier to do it Micheal's way than the way I'd been doing it, and it looks fancier too! |
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| Author: | meddlingfool [ Fri Dec 14, 2018 1:46 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: End Graft and binding help please |
Btw, Brad, how did you bend your purflings? |
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| Author: | LarryH [ Fri Dec 14, 2018 3:03 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: End Graft and binding help please |
Here's a short tut from 5 years ago. Hope it helps... viewtopic.php?f=10117&t=40548 |
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| Author: | bcombs510 [ Fri Dec 14, 2018 6:05 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: End Graft and binding help please |
meddlingfool wrote: Btw, Brad, how did you bend your purflings? I actually didn’t pre bend them. Also something new for me recently is I’m using the long bwb strips from Gurian that go the entire perimeter of the guitar in one strip. So for the purfling on the bottom edge of the bindings (front and back) and the purfling around the soundboard there are no joints (for me means no gaps ). The only purfling joint I had to worry about is the one on the back since nothing covers it. Those are coming out nicely as well. And the miters, for me, we’re no stress using the CA. Hope that helps. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro |
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