Official Luthiers Forum!
https://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/

advice
https://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=48984		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  itswednesday14 [ Thu Feb 09, 2017 3:49 pm ]
Post subject:  advice
Ive been reading this forum for a long time but because Im not a builder really I dont post much. I am posting now to ask for thoughts on how to proceed with a problem. Well some time ago I asked for someone from this forum to build a guitar for me. Several people replied and the one I chose I had the best interaction with. Ok he builds a guitar and sends it to me for which I have paid. Up front he says that if I dont like it I can return for a full refund, about $2500.
I get the guitar and the nut is 1 3/4 instead of the 1 13/16 I asked for. The intonation is off and the finish is very poor. I could have lived with the finish and even fixed the intonation but not the nut. I contact him and he says return it and he will refund my money. He doesnt offer to fix my complaints. I do return it and since then he wont return my emails or ph calls. I also sent a pm to him from this site.
Recently there was a request for us to state where we are from. On that thread he responded and told where he is so he is still participating on the forum to some extent.
My wife says to forget it but we are on retirement incomes and everything is so expensive. We have dental, car repairs, insurance etc so I really cant just let this amount of money go.
Any suggestions about what to do or think?
Author:  Pmaj7 [ Thu Feb 09, 2017 4:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: advice
How long has it been since he/she received it? Did you send it back insured/confirmed? Have a written contract?
Author:  bcombs510 [ Thu Feb 09, 2017 4:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: advice
To be clear, the money was refunded or no? Sorry about your troubles.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Author:  Alex Kleon [ Thu Feb 09, 2017 6:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: advice
If you have confirmation that the returned guitar was received, and signed for, send a copy of the receipt along in a registered letter that spells out that you would like to be refunded the promised amount by a certain date. Make and send a copy of the cheque that you made payment with, as well. Hopefully, this will get things moving. Sorry that this has been a sour experience, John.

Alex
Author:  Clay S. [ Thu Feb 09, 2017 7:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: advice
"Up front he says that if I dont like it I can return for a full refund, about $2500."

Did he spell out when the full refund would be sent and does it exclude any shipping charges? Some builders stipulate that the money will be refunded when the guitar is sold (to a third party - Hopefully that was not the case).

"My wife says to forget it but we are on retirement incomes and everything is so expensive. We have dental, car repairs, insurance etc so I really cant just let this amount of money go."

Even if it's a case of buyer's remorse, if he offered "money back if you don't like it" he should honor that, although again, the particular terms may dictate when that happens. How long did you have the guitar before you decided to send it back?
Author:  George L [ Thu Feb 09, 2017 8:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: advice
Wow, what a bummer. I hope you get this worked out soon. Good advice above. If it were me, I wouldn't give up. I admire you for taking the high road. Good luck.
Author:  B. Howard [ Fri Feb 10, 2017 8:01 am ]
Post subject:  Re: advice
This is why every build client of mine signs a commission agreement. We both know exactly what to expect from eachother and the return/refund is spelled out in detail. If the lutheir you are working with and is not a personal friend and you do not get anything in writing and signed.....as my grand dad said, buyer beware.
Author:  whiskywill [ Fri Feb 10, 2017 10:07 am ]
Post subject:  Re: advice
Does 1/16" really make a guitar unplayable?
Author:  Pmaj7 [ Fri Feb 10, 2017 10:44 am ]
Post subject:  Re: advice
whiskywill wrote:
Does 1/16" really make a guitar unplayable?

1 11/16" and 1 3/4" are the two main nut widths, so yes 1/16" is noticeable. (He didn't say unplayable) On a >2k "custom" guitar that is not acceptable if it was promised.
Author:  truckjohn [ Fri Feb 10, 2017 11:48 am ]
Post subject:  Re: advice
Yes... Well.. Our OP has never come back to check in or clarify... We have no idea whether or not the money was refunded, etc.
Author:  George L [ Fri Feb 10, 2017 12:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: advice
truckjohn wrote:
Yes... Well.. Our OP has never come back to check in or clarify... We have no idea whether or not the money was refunded, etc.

Unless I'm misreading something, it's been less than 24 hours since the first post.

I agree with Pat. For many people that 1/16" is very important and a custom instrument should be built to exact specifications.
Author:  Terence Kennedy [ Fri Feb 10, 2017 12:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: advice
Ordering a custom guitar from a builder you do not know and whose work you have not sampled is a huge risk. The forums are full of stories like this.

Best solved privately between the two parties and not on the internet.
Author:  jfmckenna [ Fri Feb 10, 2017 1:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: advice
I'm sorry to hear you have so much trouble. I would not give up on it if I were you.

I'm curious to know what you mean by the finish is very poor. Is it fit and finish i.e. that perhaps the binding scarf joint isn't so great or are you talking about the lacquer or French polish? In that price range you are not buying from a master builder so you will see fit and finish flaws, especially on the inside of the guitar which is nit picking at best. I know, because I sell in that price range, and I have yet to get the binding and purfling perfect and I'll never be able to get a flawless mirror finished instrument. I rarely do commission but I did just do one for a guy who took a risk on someone he never sampled or knew anything about other then a Youtube video and thankfully he is very pleased.

So I'd hate for the world to take Mr. Kennedy's (probably wise) advice and not at least look at lesser known builders provided of course the price matches the quality expected and there is good communication if it's not. We all gotta start somewhere ;)

The nut width can be fixed pretty easily, the finish too, the intonation could be a whole host of other problems.
Author:  kencierp [ Fri Feb 10, 2017 2:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: advice
Best advice I see here is to get this issue off the internet -- get legal help. $.02
Author:  J De Rocher [ Fri Feb 10, 2017 2:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: advice
jfmckenna wrote:
The nut width can be fixed pretty easily, the finish too, the intonation could be a whole host of other problems.


The nut width he got is narrower than what he asked for. Is there a way to easily fix that?
Author:  jfmckenna [ Fri Feb 10, 2017 3:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: advice
J De Rocher wrote:
jfmckenna wrote:
The nut width can be fixed pretty easily, the finish too, the intonation could be a whole host of other problems.


The nut width he got is narrower than what he asked for. Is there a way to easily fix that?


Oh never mind. In my world of dyslexia up is often down left is right and so on...
Author:  itswednesday14 [ Fri Feb 10, 2017 4:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: advice
So I dont check more than once a day and thank you for all your advice. It was all a gentlemans agreement, no contracts. No, the money has not been received. I returned the guitar immediately. It has been several months. I have repeatedly tried to contact him even with a PM through this forum. Yes 1/16" too narrow is a big difference. I went from 1 11/16 to 1 3/4 and played that for a year but my hand said it wanted a little wider. I got one built with 1 13/16 and it was perfect while I find 1 7/8 on guitars Ive played too much. I hope that address all the comments except I have no idea how to proceed with legal assistance and I suppose that would eat up whatever dollars I got back, I dont know.
Author:  itswednesday14 [ Fri Feb 10, 2017 4:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: advice
It seems I missed one comment. The finish was a new type of shellac finish that has been reviewed here. And that would have been ok. The fit of everything was perfect. I would have been willing for him to fix the intonation or have me get someone to do it but there is no fixing the nut width. Perhaps he could have taken the neck off and put a new one on. I did send the specs and even a drawing of the neck, strings, pins so how he screwed that up I see no excuse for. The verbal agreement was just the cost, materials used and return privilege. Everything else was written down. All the guitars I have had built were just verbal agreements so yes I am too trusting. Whether I get this guitar or not I have learned something. Dont use unknown builders. I may have to get one of those Asian built guitars as I know some have a 1 13/16" nut.
Author:  Fasterthanlight [ Fri Feb 10, 2017 5:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: advice
I feel really bad for you... i hope you get your money back...

My 2 cents...

Name him!

Think about it... right now you are being very polite and proper in keeping him anonymous but if what you say is true (and i have no reason to disbelieve you) then you are just perpetuating his ease of avoiding the issue.

I you name him then i think that the good people of this board can hopefully help out and convince him to cough up what he owes you... perhaps someone on here knows him quite enough to personally step in??

If this does not work i strongly suggest legal action... you need to begin collecting evidence of your interactions with him, copies of messages, bank transfer statements etc. One well worded letter from a solicitor can usually sort this kind of thing out.

Hope this helps

FTL
Author:  RusRob [ Fri Feb 10, 2017 5:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: advice
I have been doing contract work for most of my life (I am retired now so...) and without a contract it can be more difficult to get your money back (depending what state you live in). But you can get it back.

First I would advise not trying to resolve this through the internet or email. You bought the guitar from him so I would assume you would have talked directly with him so the very least you should have his phone number, if not, you have his address so you may be able to find his number or you could send him a registered letter to try to resolve this issue (he has to sign for a registered letter so you know he will get it).

It is your best interest to resolve this between you and him and as they say "reasonable minds will prevail". If he will not answer your calls or respond to your mail then you have no choice than to hire a good lawyer or write it off as a lesson in how not to purchase anything like this without a contract.

Sorry you are having such a difficult time but I am sure you will get it resolved.

Bob
Author:  J De Rocher [ Fri Feb 10, 2017 5:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: advice
Fasterthanlight wrote:
I feel really bad for you... i hope you get your money back...

My 2 cents...

Name him!



Personally, I think this is an awful idea. The OLF is not an appropriate forum for resolving personal disputes, IMO. Especially given that only one side of the story has been told here. I'm not trying to cast doubt on the OP's story. It's just a matter of fairness.
Author:  wbergman [ Fri Feb 10, 2017 5:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: advice
I have had some success using the state consumer complaint system, which probably every state has through its attorney general's office. Look on you attorney general's web site to see what is available.
Author:  Pmaj7 [ Fri Feb 10, 2017 6:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: advice
People court or similar. I'm sure they would love a case more interesting than their standard fare. Although the builder would need to think he has a case.
Author:  itswednesday14 [ Fri Feb 10, 2017 8:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: advice
I went to the dentist this morning and he said $5,000 just for the bottom teeth so Ill have to check out the attorney general idea. That sounds like it has potential but I dont think "people" small claims would work as I live in California and hes in Ohio or some such. Just the cost of going there would eat up whatever I got from the court decision.
I do wish that the members here could function as a jury of some sort, all write him letters but that isnt what my intent was for posting. Ive emailed, sent regular mail letters, PMd through here, called several times. I thought he might have died but as he just recently posted on this forum I think hes just ignoring me cause he knows he can get away with it.
Author:  DennisK [ Fri Feb 10, 2017 8:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: advice
Most likely you're screwed. Without a written return policy, I don't think courts can do anything. And most people seem to have an inability to let money sit in the bank unspent, so it's unlikely that he could pay you back if he wanted to. If you can get him to respond again, you could try offering an installment plan, like $200 a month or something. Not going to help with your bills right now, but may be the best chance you've got at ever seeing your money again.
Page 1 of 2 All times are UTC - 5 hours
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
http://www.phpbb.com/