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Determining saddle height
https://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=48975		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  bcombs510 [ Mon Feb 06, 2017 10:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Determining saddle height
I'm wondering what method you guys like to use to determine the saddle height? I've been using the method that Robbie Obrien talks about in his videos. Essentially putting a 2.5mm shim on the bass side and 2mm shim on the treble. Then use a straight edge and mark the bottom of the straight edge to indicate the string. Then mark the radius to use as a reference and take the saddle down to close to the marks. Then take from the bottom of the saddle slowly to sneak up on the right action.

This works ok, but the shim part seems error prone. I've had to throw away a couple of blanks because they were way too low out of the gate.

In the Cumpiano book I believe he measures up from the bridge to mark the center of the saddle height and then work from there.

What other methods do you guys like to use? I'd like something that feels a little more consistent and repeatable.

Glad the forum is back up! I felt like a junkie detoxing there for a bit. ;)

Brad


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Author:  Mike OMelia [ Mon Feb 06, 2017 10:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Determining saddle height
http://thbecker.net/guitar_playing/guit ... ge_01.html

Hope this helps. It's fairly logical. But does not take some top geometries into account.
Author:  Hesh [ Tue Feb 07, 2017 5:54 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Determining saddle height
Saddle height need not be a complicated thing.

1) Use a dummy saddle that is taller than usual or just make a tall saddle to start with and string her up, tune to pitch, adjust truss rod, cut nut slots.

2) With all of number 1 above completed and ONLY after number 1 is completed measure action at the 12th (I prefer 64th inches) for both the high e and the low e.

3) Know industry norms for set-up specs such as the Martin specs. With 12's 4 and 6/64" respectively at the 12 for low action and with 13's for example 5 and 7. For electrics with 10's 4 and 5 or less than 5 for low action. Shredders like lower action such as sub 4/64th for the high e and sub 4/64th for the low e. Jazz players can like high action or low action, depends on the player. Fingerstyle players 4 and 5.5 seems to do the trick.

4) Determine how high your saddle is and the difference between the target action and what you have. For each 32nd" taken off the final saddle bottom reduces the action by very close to 1/64th" at the 12th. Or in other words reduce saddle height by twice what you need at the 12th. Again this is with all other things being constant, truss rod adjusted, nut slots already cut, etc. This works because the 12th is half way down the "speaking length" of the string.

5) Capo strings, slack strings, remove pins for the low e, a, and d and pull saddle and mill bottom to reduce height in accordance with your simple math and desired target height.

6) Reinstall saddle, tune to pitch, put in playing position and check it out and measure again. I always play Purple Haze to annoy Dave...:)

Usually I nail it with this method the first time. There are other slight variables here such as how the neck relief may respond when the string tension has a reduced and lower angle. Usually though the above gets me right where I want to go.

Pencil sharpness and the thickness of my lines on the saddle are a variable too. We like to sharpen our mechanical pencils to help with this.
Author:  bcombs510 [ Tue Feb 07, 2017 6:22 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Determining saddle height
Thanks, Hesh. I remember doing this in the class, and it worked out perfectly. But, I can't recall how we put the radius on the saddle, or did we at all? Also, if starting with a flat saddle bottom and top, and if taking the material from the bottom of the saddle, how do we end at 4 and 6 64ths? Mark an angled line across the bottom of the saddle and sand to that line?


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Author:  bcombs510 [ Tue Feb 07, 2017 10:48 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Determining saddle height
Hesh, to be clear - I follow the steps in this video, starting at 6:25. The part about using the shim and straight edge the create the angle across the top of the saddle in order to get 4 and 6 64th's. I'm not sure how to accomplish that using the steps above. Also, the radius, which is less important but also how to do you accomplish that in the steps above?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EWuA2aFwKMk

Again, the goal is to get something that feels more repeatable than the shim approach in the video.
Author:  Rocky Road [ Thu Feb 09, 2017 5:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Determining saddle height
Hi Brad
I was in that class with you. I also brought in a parlor size. As I recall we used a Stew Mac radius gauge to mark out the curve on the saddle. This is done after having used the "dummy saddle and taking measurements then marking those two e-string measurements. So with the radius gauge you are connecting the dots directly under each of those strings locations.
Remember when fitting the saddle that the saddle should match the bridges slot-bottom as good as you can get it. The first several guitars I built I didn't radius the underside of the bridge to match the top, which can result in the saddle slot being slightly curved. This will have an impact on how well the saddle can transfer energy to the top. As Robbie O'Brien says "the technical term for that is- bad". This technique is how I learned to do it and after doing it many times ( in other words screwing up a bunch of saddles) I'm almost half way good at it.
The radius is very important as I'm sure you know, as that sets the other four strings height above the frets.



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Author:  bcombs510 [ Thu Feb 09, 2017 7:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Determining saddle height
Thanks! I don't recall the radius gauge in the mix, which might be the missing piece of the puzzle?

I cut the saddle slot after the bridge is attached, so I should be good with getting the saddle seated and bottomed out.

Can you link me to the radius gauge we used? Until now I've been marking the radius off the fretboard as a template using the half pencil idea. Then using the shims that obrien suggests to get the 4 and 6 64ths marks. Then taking the saddle down from the top to the 4 and 6 64th marks while keeping the radius marked from the fretboard.

This works ok but the shims situation is finiky at best. At least for me.


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Author:  Rocky Road [ Thu Feb 09, 2017 9:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Determining saddle height
The Stew Mac item # is 5432.
I don't know how to link from this dumb smart phone.
I think it is faster to approach this as Dave Collins demonstrated. Start with a dummy saddle that looks too tall.
Install the two e strings. Tune them up. I will tighten the truss rod enough that the neck won't up bow to much.
Now measure at the 12th fret, which is the half way point in scale length. Measure and mark accordingly. Then strike the arc with the template thatdo matches your neck radius.


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Author:  Rocky Road [ Thu Feb 09, 2017 9:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Determining saddle height
Work the saddle down to your line. Smooth and round that surface. Reinstall the saddle and two strings. Re check your string heights. Now if you have to drop the saddle more take it off the saddle bottom. Keep it square and straight. After you do it enough it goes quickly. And if you are like me you will developer a pretty good sized pile of the ones you overshot.


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Author:  Rocky Road [ Thu Feb 09, 2017 9:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Determining saddle height
By the way I forgot to ask. What do you finish your guitars with? Lacquer, varnish, shellac?
Sorry I know this is off topic.



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Author:  bcombs510 [ Thu Feb 09, 2017 9:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Determining saddle height
Got it. Ok, I do have those gauges already so I will try this the next chance I get.

So far, I've used Endurovar and Tung oil. I got some of the post catalyzed royal lac a week or two ago. I'm going to do some test panels maybe this weekend.


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Author:  Rocky Road [ Thu Feb 09, 2017 9:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Determining saddle height
I'm going to give that shellac a try as well. I need to get away from the nitro before it gets me.


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Author:  Hesh [ Fri Feb 10, 2017 5:52 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Determining saddle height
Wanted to thank David for helping Brad and both of you for making us proud! [:Y:] [:Y:] [:Y:]
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