Official Luthiers Forum! :: View topic - Neck carving

Hello,

Recently I came to the conclusion that I'm not ready to carve necks yet. I've built three guitars so far and all three had necks that were too wide at the shoulders (hoping that is the right term) and flat across the back, not rounded. I've already started the process of getting CNC necks going and I'm going to do that for at least the next few builds.

But... not wanting to give up completely on neck carving I bought a template from LMI (two actually, an OM and Dread which coincidentally are almost exactly the same and I'm not sure why they sell two different parts). Below are some pics of the template held to a neck for a parlor I completed recently. The parlor is finished with tung oil which makes me wonder if I can make some adjustments to the neck and improve the feel of it.

Any thoughts on this? Just take the shoulders down with a rasp and try to fit to this template? Leave well enough alone? As an aside, this guitar is the best sounding so far. I must be learning a little something.

Appreciate any feedback.

Thanks!
Brad

Author:	bcombs510 [ Tue Jan 31, 2017 5:22 pm ]
Post subject:	Neck carving - advice needed
Hello, Recently I came to the conclusion that I'm not ready to carve necks yet. I've built three guitars so far and all three had necks that were too wide at the shoulders (hoping that is the right term) and flat across the back, not rounded. I've already started the process of getting CNC necks going and I'm going to do that for at least the next few builds. But... not wanting to give up completely on neck carving I bought a template from LMI (two actually, an OM and Dread which coincidentally are almost exactly the same and I'm not sure why they sell two different parts). Below are some pics of the template held to a neck for a parlor I completed recently. The parlor is finished with tung oil which makes me wonder if I can make some adjustments to the neck and improve the feel of it. Any thoughts on this? Just take the shoulders down with a rasp and try to fit to this template? Leave well enough alone? As an aside, this guitar is the best sounding so far. I must be learning a little something. Appreciate any feedback. Attachment: IMG_1671.JPG Attachment: IMG_1672.JPG Attachment: IMG_1673.JPG Thanks! Brad

Author:	JoeM [ Tue Jan 31, 2017 5:34 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Neck carving - advice needed
Personally I'd leave the finished guitar alone unless it's so uncomfortable you don't want to play it. You certainly could re-shape it and re-finish it.

Author:	Clinchriver [ Tue Jan 31, 2017 5:43 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Neck carving - advice needed
bcombs510 wrote: Hello, Recently I came to the conclusion that I'm not ready to carve necks yet. I've built three guitars so far and all three had necks that were too wide at the shoulders (hoping that is the right term) and flat across the back, not rounded. I've already started the process of getting CNC necks going and I'm going to do that for at least the next few builds. But... not wanting to give up completely on neck carving I bought a template from LMI (two actually, an OM and Dread which coincidentally are almost exactly the same and I'm not sure why they sell two different parts). Below are some pics of the template held to a neck for a parlor I completed recently. The parlor is finished with tung oil which makes me wonder if I can make some adjustments to the neck and improve the feel of it. Any thoughts on this? Just take the shoulders down with a rasp and try to fit to this template? Leave well enough alone? As an aside, this guitar is the best sounding so far. I must be learning a little something. Appreciate any feedback. Thanks! Brad If your playing it I'd leave it alone, Get some cheap wood, a neck/pattern you really like and let the shavings fly. I use Stew Mac Dragon, and Liogier rasp, a Veritas spokeshave and several straight edges. Get the area under the first, and the 11/12th fret right and its easy to blend it all together. Practice makes perfect.

Author:	DennisK [ Tue Jan 31, 2017 6:01 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Neck carving - advice needed
Go for it. Nothing wrong with continuing work on the neck after it's attached to the box. And it does make a big difference in comfort when you get the shape right. Don't be a chicken, but don't be careless either. You can always take more off later, but you can't put it back. Focus more on the feel of it than the visual match to the templates.

Author:	Jim Watts [ Tue Jan 31, 2017 7:43 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Neck carving - advice needed
I do it like Clinchriver states above. Get the 1st fret and as far up as you can go without running into the heel using templates, then blend the rest. I usually do this over a few day's here and there so I can look at with a fresh set eyes as I'm working. Look at it under varying light and inspect it by feel. You should be able to get great results this way.

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Author:	kjaffrey [ Tue Jan 31, 2017 7:46 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Neck carving - advice needed
I re-carved one of the early made necks and was very happy with the results, it was finished with lacquer so it required a lot more touch in the refinishing department than yours might. It's hard to tell from the pictures whether your necks are thick enough for a total reshaping, but as long as it's not too thin already I would definitely take some off the sides. A benefit would be if you are carefull you could shape it, tighten the strings and play it for a little while and then adjust it more if needed.

Author:	Lonnie J Barber [ Tue Jan 31, 2017 8:19 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Neck carving - advice needed
It's an example of your work/art. Build the next one remembering what and how someday you might want to look back on this one. Good luck[SMILING FACE WITH SMILING EYES] Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Author:	rlrhett [ Wed Feb 01, 2017 12:31 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Neck carving - advice needed
Add me in to the "go for it" crowd. My third guitar had such a sweet voice, but like a lot of beginners I just didn't understand how much wood you remove to go from a square neck blank to a good playable neck. It had that characteristic "school bus" profile. I kept wanting to play it, but that neck would make me put it down. Finally, almost a decade later, I decided if I destroyed the neck by re-carving it I could live with that. She wasn't getting played anyway. I carved it, sanded and prepped it, and refinished it in a couple of days. WHAT A DIFFERENCE! I love playing this guitar now, and I love handing it to friends to play. I wish I had done that years ago. So I say "go for it". It's not set in stone. Make it right for you! Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Author:	powdrell [ Wed Feb 01, 2017 12:57 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Neck carving - advice needed
I have 'fine tuned' several necks after they were completed and played.....mostly around the 1-3 frets. Let your left playing hand be the judge....a small amount taken off can make a BIG difference. Your hand is a better judge than a template...my $.02......

Author:	James Orr [ Wed Feb 01, 2017 1:10 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Neck carving - advice needed
This is funny to me in an ironic sense. I just finished my first neck today after purchasing pre-made necks up until now. I used the Victor neck template from Luthier Suppliers (after the builder of my favorite neck at the Santa Barbara show told me he used the 2006 Taylor Concert template from Luthier Suppliers, I ordered one of those as well), a course and medium rasp from Lioger, a spokeshave, and sandpaper. I loved using the spokeshave and rasps, but the most useful tool turned out to be sandpaper. I used a spent roll of 100 grit paper from my drum sander to do the final smoothing along the shaft, and a few of the drums from my spindle sander to blend shaft to headstock and shaft to heel transitions after rasping away as much as I could. I think you should go for it. Err on the side of being careful rather than careless, and work in specific sections at a time. The neck template page on the Luthier Supplier's website has a link to some detailed videos on the process.

Author:	Joe Beaver [ Wed Feb 01, 2017 2:16 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Neck carving - advice needed
When you are laying out a neck for shaping, there are two two planes you need to establish first, then make sure you don't change those during shaping. The first is the sides of the neck that are dictated by the shape of the fingerboard, and the second is the flat plane down the center of the bottom of the neck that is determined by the thickness you want under the nut and at the place the where the transition to the heel begins. Establish those planes first then round almost to them, but never change those surfaces as you shape. In your pictures with the template, check the thickness of the neck at the two points. If you are already there then you can only do a little shaping on the sides of the neck without changing the intended plane. Also make sure the width of the fingerboard at the nut and body joining fret are the same on the template as the neck you are making. For instance, Most of my necks are 1-3/4 and 1-13/16" at the nut. A template design for a 1-11/16" nut would throw me off. It's late here. I hope this still makes sense in the morning. Good luck

Author:	truckjohn [ Wed Feb 01, 2017 8:56 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Neck carving - advice needed
Go for it. I have reshaped necks on guitars... Finishes can be replaced... And if it's your guitar - you probably still have the original finish laying around so you can redo it. In this case - there's nothing worse than a neck you hate on a guitar you like. Neck shaping by hand takes some practice. As others have said - if it looks about right without the fretboard - it's way too chunky.. School bus is a great description of the shape. It sounds like you aren't after the depth of the neck - but rather flattening out the shoulders. In real life - I think of the shape of a guitar neck more like half an egg or a parenthesis mark ( than a C or D shape... Which generally feel too fat against your fingers. My only case for leaving it be is if you have a friend who loves the neck and you give it to him. Thanks

Author:	bcombs510 [ Wed Feb 01, 2017 9:27 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Neck carving - advice needed
This is all good feedback. I appreciate it! I'm going to give it a shot. My plan is to use my contour gauge to take a profile of the neck, compare that to the template (I'll just use the OM template to get it "close") and determine what material needs to come off. Heard loud and clear, take it slow. Will do that. I'll post of pics of the progress unless I start carving and hit truss rod. I have a couple cheaper rasps and two microplane shapes (rounded and flat). I may invest in some quality rasps first though. So thanks for the suggestions there as well. Brad

Author:	SteveSmith [ Wed Feb 01, 2017 10:17 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Neck carving - advice needed
I've redone one and glad I did. Not a big deal, just take your time. If you screw it up, make a new neck.

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Author:	BradHall [ Wed Feb 01, 2017 11:51 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Neck carving - advice needed
Some good advice from people more experienced than me. One concern I've had is to not make the neck thickness too thin at the truss rod near the 1st fret. If you know how deep you made the channel you can measure how much wood remains.

Author:	johnparchem [ Wed Feb 01, 2017 12:33 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Neck carving - advice needed
My necks also tended to be to shaped like what you are showing with the template. I have taken a spokes shave and rasp to three of my early guitars just taking the shoulders down. I created an even facet on both sides then blended the facets in without changing the thickness of the neck. The changes made a huge difference. I refinished with shellac and royal-lac. It was well worth the time and effort.

Author:	Clay S. [ Wed Feb 01, 2017 12:50 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Neck carving - advice needed
Powdrell wrote: "Your hand is a better judge than a template...my $.02......" Words to live by.... To refine the shape of the neck I would use a card scraper. It can remove a surprising amount of material and leaves a more finished surface than a rasp, and will allow you to feel the shape of the neck better.

Author:	Ruby50 [ Wed Feb 01, 2017 11:00 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Neck carving - advice needed
I might try those templates against a neck that I like to see how they match. Oh, and by the way, go for it. Ed

Author:	bcombs510 [ Mon Feb 06, 2017 10:30 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Neck carving - advice needed
Thanks for all the replies. I went for it over the weekend and carved the shoulders off and rounded out the feel of the neck. I used the widest part of the template just to visually check as a I moved up the neck. I used a couple files, pictured below. I have to admit the template gave a lot of confidence as I was working. To my surprise I had to give a slight level and recrown of the frets to get rid of a little buzz in the G and D strings. I'm very happy with the results. Glad I did it, with the encouragement from you folks. Thanks! Brad Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Author:	SteveSmith [ Tue Feb 07, 2017 1:46 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Neck carving - advice needed
Great, glad it worked out.

Author:	Steve Marcq [ Tue Feb 07, 2017 9:48 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Neck carving - advice needed
In my vast neck carving experience (like, 6), this is what I've learned: When you are cruising right along, rasping, scraping, measuring the thickness, checking the cardboard templates you made, checking how it feels in your hand, when you finally think you have it just right, you should have stopped 5 minutes earlier. Now, when I get it close, I leave it and come back the next day, fresh eyes, different light, whatever. Sculpting, or whatever this is, I'm definitely a plodder, not a natural...

Author:	Terence Kennedy [ Tue Feb 07, 2017 11:01 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Neck carving - advice needed
Looking at a newly shaped neck the next day with fresh eyes and hands seems a common theme with experienced builders. Maybe even over a couple of days. It's a very important part of my neck shaping process. It is surprising how blending the curve of the neck into the fretboard so it is a continuous arc makes such a big difference in playability.

Author:	klooker [ Wed Feb 08, 2017 8:17 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Neck carving - advice needed
Spokeshave, chisels, rasps, scrapers, sandpaper like everyone else. I've been very happy with this 12" hand cut rasp from The Best Things shown next to an original Nicholson #50 which is also very good. I also use a couple smaller ones around the heel & where the neck meets the peghead. Attachment: Rasps.JPG http://www.thebestthings.com/newtools/h ... _rasps.htm

Author:	jfmckenna [ Wed Feb 08, 2017 9:40 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Neck carving - advice needed
I'm glad you went for it, I've done that very same thing on a couple guitars and it's made a great difference. As for carving, I've never used any templates for measuring profiles, it just seems unnecessary to me and even a bit cumbersome. Last year I got those Dragon rasps that Stew Mac sells and that was a great investment. I used to use knives and chisels to get the heal and nut end right but man those wrasps make it easy and fast. Once the two ends are made then I pull everything together with the spoke shave. The spoke shave is great becasue it keeps everything even. All you have to do is watch the curl and then you know it's an even cut. Cumpiano and Natelsons book has a great tip on carving the neck that I have used since I got that book many many years ago. Hold it up to a window or a very bright light and look for the edge of light on the curved profile of the neck along it's length. If it's a nice straight shado line then you know you are getting it right. I always finish off the profiling nad remove the spoke shave tool marks with a radius sanding block.