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2 identicle guitars, different playability?
https://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=48466		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  WendyW [ Sat Oct 29, 2016 1:43 pm ]
Post subject:  2 identicle guitars, different playability?
So I built a guitar for a friend. The body is the same size and configuration as a Torres FE17. Scale length is 632.5 mm. Top is bear claw sitka spruce, back and sides are oregon myrtle, neck is Spanish cedar. The guitar is strung with D'Addario Pro-Arte hard tension. I loved the way the guitar sounded and the ease of playing so much that I decided to build another for myself.

I changed some of the woods for mine. Top is the same bear claw sitka from the same tree. Back and sides are honduras mahogany, and the neck is birdseye maple. Same scale length, same action settings at the 12th fret, same height of the string at the nut slots, same string height at the saddle. Same strings, and same neck shape and thicknesses. The guitar has a sound that I am very happy with, but I hate to play it because it feels very stiff. I keep thinking it is the action but every time I check, it is exactly the same as the myrtle guitar.

Can neck material make that much difference in playability? It is the only answer I have been able to come up with. I am thinking of trying it with normal tension strings instead of hard tension, but I was under the impression that I would have to use hard tension due to the short scale length. Any suggestions or clues as to what is going on are appreciated.
Author:  J De Rocher [ Sat Oct 29, 2016 2:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 2 identicle guitars, different playability?
Where on the fretboard does it feel stiff? Everywhere or does it get worse as you get close to the nut. I know you said that the string height at the nut slots is the same, but a very small difference there can make a noticeable difference in feel. How did you measure the string height at the nut?
Author:  Alan Carruth [ Sat Oct 29, 2016 4:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 2 identicle guitars, different playability?
Those guitars are far from 'identical'. Even making two guitars from 'sister' sets of wood generally results in instruments that sound and even play a bit different. In your case, I've never seen any maple that was as low in density as cedro, and the added weight in the neck is more than likely enough of a change to account for the difference. If you carved the maple neck thinner to keep the weight the same it would almost certainly end up less stiff, and that could also alter the feel.
Author:  Pmaj7 [ Sat Oct 29, 2016 4:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 2 identicle guitars, different playability?
Does the relief measure the same?
Author:  WendyW [ Mon Oct 31, 2016 11:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 2 identicle guitars, different playability?
I wrote this question and then the weekend got away from me and I never had a chance to get back here. Thanks for the responses.

Jay, I'm pretty sure it feels stiff everywhere. I measured the string height at the nut using feeler gauges. I think they're quite low. 1st=.003, 2nd=.003, 3rd=.005, 4th=.004, 5th=.005, 6th=.008. I measured the action at the 12th fret using a technofret action gauge and digital calipers and the 1st string is somewhere between 2.66-2.76 mm, and 6th string is 3.32-3.45 mm.

Not sure about the relief Pat, I will have to check that out. And Alan, I agree the guitars are not identical. I thought the woods would have more of an effect on the sound. I didn't realize that the stiffness and weight of the neck would have that much effect on the playability. I think you are right that it is the neck, which was what I suspected.

Do you think there would be any point in trying it with normal tension strings or is that just not even feasible with that short of a scale length?
Thanks, Wendy
Author:  murrmac [ Tue Nov 01, 2016 5:44 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 2 identicle guitars, different playability?
Colin, I wouldn't have thought Wendy's action was excessively high for a classical guitar.

Interesting gauge you linked to there. I tend to favour feel rather than sight when it comes to measuring action, both at the nut and at the twelfth. The most accurate way, bar none, to measure the action at the twelfth fret is to use a set of pin gauges. These will measure the action accurately to within .001" once you acquire the "feel" for using them. Whether such accuracy is in fact required is another question, but the pin gauges are certainly faster and more accurate than feeler gauges when it comes to measuring action when filing the saddle from the top.

I will shortly be introducing another gauge for accurate nut slot nut filing, which will complement the Technofret gauge alluded to by Wendy in her post above.

EDIT: Colin's post appears to have vanished ... idunno
Author:  Colin North [ Tue Nov 01, 2016 6:35 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 2 identicle guitars, different playability?
murrmac wrote:
Colin, I wouldn't have thought Wendy's action was excessively high for a classical guitar.
.........
EDIT: Colin's post appears to have vanished ... idunno

Because I reaised it was a classical............. [headinwall]
Author:  WendyW [ Tue Nov 01, 2016 5:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 2 identicle guitars, different playability?
Sorry Colin, should have said classical and meant to.
Author:  Colin North [ Wed Nov 02, 2016 2:51 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 2 identicle guitars, different playability?
Not at all Wendy, I should have read the post properly, the "Torres FE17" was a bit if a clue.............
Author:  Michael.N. [ Wed Nov 02, 2016 2:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 2 identicle guitars, different playability?
I make a Torres at 630 mm and one at 635, 640 and 650 mm too. I play normal tension strings at 415 Hz, which would make them very low tension. Not a problem at 4 mm/3 mm action on the short 630 scale. Drop the tuning by a semi tone. Try it then.
Author:  WendyW [ Wed Nov 02, 2016 3:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 2 identicle guitars, different playability?
Thank you Michael, I will give that a try. I also played the guitar for a while last night and it does seem a little stiffer toward the nut end of the fingerboard but I don't think I can go any lower on the nut slots. I tried to use a lighter touch in my fretting hand, something I should try to make a habit of, since I have a tendency to use way too much pressure anyway. Probably what has caused so many tendon issues in my wrist and hand to begin with. Using a lighter touch felt better.
Author:  Michael.N. [ Wed Nov 02, 2016 4:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 2 identicle guitars, different playability?
Play damped scales or chords. Finger just touch the strings so that they don't really sound. Then play buzz scales and chords, just enough pressure to create a buzz. Practice these often. a bit boring but eventually you will learn to use less pressure. The focus should be on getting each and every finger just behind the fret.
You can also take the thumb off from the back of the neck, just a touch, not entirely away from the back of the neck. That's also good for bar chords.
I've suffered from that kind of tension (and others!) for years. Playing relatively tension free can make an enormous difference.
Author:  douglas ingram [ Wed Nov 02, 2016 7:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 2 identicle guitars, different playability?
I love the FE17 Torres! I find it responds and plays very well with Aquila Nylgut strings. They really add a sparkle that is absent with nylon strings on a Torres guitar.
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