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Rear plate pattern
https://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=48460		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  cablepuller1 [ Thu Oct 27, 2016 10:02 am ]
Post subject:  Rear plate pattern
Hi just after opinions on whether to leave colouring in on this rear plate or not

Many thanks

It's not symmetric and there's no light colouring on reverse side on one of the boards
Image
Author:  kencierp [ Thu Oct 27, 2016 10:13 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Rear plate pattern
FYI image size is way to big -- about a half page.

I would trim it out, especially since it is not a good book match. $.02
Author:  cablepuller1 [ Thu Oct 27, 2016 10:15 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Rear plate pattern
kencierp wrote:
FYI image size is way to big -- about a half page.

I would trim it out, especially since it is not a good book match. $.02

OK thanks Ken

Image is ok on my phone ..weird I don't know why it's gone supersize
Author:  Woodie G [ Thu Oct 27, 2016 11:36 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Rear plate pattern
It seems to me that sap wood is a little like a well shaped fedora...it's certainly not for everyone. Much of the plantation-grown East Indian Rosewood we see is so nondescript that any hint of an interesting color or pattern variation seems like something to cherish. For a factory guitar clone, perhaps do as Mr. Cierpilowski suggests and trim it out, but for something with a bit more panache, the minor asymmetry might lend an interesting grace note to an otherwise unremarkable composition.
Author:  J De Rocher [ Thu Oct 27, 2016 11:42 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Rear plate pattern
I would remove it too, if it leaves you enough width for the back. Does that outline drawn on the back show the guitar you're going to build?
Author:  doncaparker [ Thu Oct 27, 2016 11:46 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Rear plate pattern
Just on the size of the photo: If you use an iPhone, the size of the image is always too big for this forum. When I post photos here, I always have to take them on my phone, e-mail them to myself, download onto a PC, then resize to small. Then I can attach them here without an issue. A bit of a hassle, but it is what it is.

On the back: Maybe try trimming the left side enough to get closer to symmetry. If that won't work, then cut the distinctive pattern out altogether. But, something I always have to worry about is whether the back is big enough. I like a 16" wide lower bout, so I watch the amount of scrap on the outside edge very closely.
Author:  cablepuller1 [ Thu Oct 27, 2016 11:57 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Rear plate pattern
J De Rocher wrote:
I would remove it too, if it leaves you enough width for the back. Does that outline drawn on the back show the guitar you're going to build?

No it won't show much on the back and the other edges butted up look OK also ..
Just not sure about the coloured bit
Author:  SteveSmith [ Thu Oct 27, 2016 11:59 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Rear plate pattern
If you take the image with an IPhone just use Tapatalk to post it and the size will be fine, plus it is easy. I often post the images with Tapatalk then edit the post on the computer where it's easier to add the text.

As far as the back goes, I am generally a fan of some sapwood in the middle but in this case,and especially with the herringbone strip, I think it is more of a distraction and I would trim it out. However, it is wood so whatever you decide will probably be just fine.
Author:  Pmaj7 [ Thu Oct 27, 2016 12:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Rear plate pattern
I would definitely keep it! But only if you get rid of the center strip. However, I would cut down the left side just a little to make it a little closer. If you really want the center strip, then get rid of this app. Or, if you just use a simple black center strip or maybe a bwb or maybe something the same as the binding.
Author:  doncaparker [ Thu Oct 27, 2016 12:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Rear plate pattern
I agree that you should choose between the distinctive sapwood pattern and the center purfling strip. One or the other, but not both.

I have moved away from using center purfling strips, for the most part. I like how the big, uninterrupted field of rosewood (or whatever) looks, even without an interesting grain pattern in the middle.
Author:  cablepuller1 [ Thu Oct 27, 2016 12:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Rear plate pattern
doncaparker wrote:
I agree that you should choose between the distinctive sapwood pattern and the center purfling strip. One or the other, but not both.

I have moved away from using center purfling strips, for the most part. I like how the big, uninterrupted field of rosewood (or whatever) looks, even without an interesting grain pattern in the middle.

Are you able to create an invisible joint in the rosewood donca?
Author:  J De Rocher [ Thu Oct 27, 2016 1:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Rear plate pattern
I go back and forth on center strips depending on the type of wood, the grain pattern, the size of the body, and the overall look of the guitar. I agree about not combining the sapwood and a backstrip.

Cablepuller - If you decide to go ahead and trim the plates as much as you can and still keep them wide enough, but find that a bit of the sapwood remains, an inlaid backstrip plus purfling might be wide enough to cover it.
Author:  Robert Lak [ Thu Oct 27, 2016 1:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Rear plate pattern
If it was me... by time I got the joint straight, it would be gone anyway... laughing6-hehe
Author:  Clinchriver [ Thu Oct 27, 2016 1:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Rear plate pattern
Leave it, I like the asymmetry, it's small enough it won't dominate the back and adds some interest
Author:  doncaparker [ Thu Oct 27, 2016 2:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Rear plate pattern
cablepuller1 wrote:
doncaparker wrote:
I agree that you should choose between the distinctive sapwood pattern and the center purfling strip. One or the other, but not both.

I have moved away from using center purfling strips, for the most part. I like how the big, uninterrupted field of rosewood (or whatever) looks, even without an interesting grain pattern in the middle.

Are you able to create an invisible joint in the rosewood donca?


Yes, especially in rosewood. It is pretty dark. In fact, after I glue the halves together, scrape the glue off, thickness sand the whole thing, and cut it to the rough shape of the guitar, I sometimes have a hard time finding the center line again. Cutting a little notch in the scrap portion on both ends can help avoid that, but I have forgotten to do that, and I have to really look hard to find the line afterward. Once the whole guitar is together, it is a really nice look.

Lighter woods might not be as forgiving. But, then again, we don't put center purfling strips on a maple electric guitar top, and I don't think I normally see them on archtop backs. The bookmatched maple looks cool on its own.

I've used center strips, and they are fine. I have just moved toward not using them.
Author:  SteveSmith [ Thu Oct 27, 2016 3:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Rear plate pattern
If you decide to trim it out and have a width issue then it looks like this set might look just fine if you matched the other edges and left the sapwood on the outside of the upper bout.
Author:  John Lewis [ Thu Oct 27, 2016 4:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Rear plate pattern
Image

I would lose the center strip entirely and cut out the sapwood like shown, then join. Turn the joined plate upside down to gain more room for the lower bout - place the upper bout on the end the sapwood was cut out. Just my $.02.

Like most folks are saying either get rid of the herringbone or the sapwood. Don't keep both and I would personally get rid of both. However you join this back, it's going to be pretty.
Author:  Joe Beaver [ Thu Oct 27, 2016 4:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Rear plate pattern
I'm leaning the same way as Steve suggested, but I would start by opening he bookmatch the other way right from the start. (Sapwood on the outside). If the sapwood section was more uniform and wide enough that it showed properly after the joint is cleaned up, I would consider using it. But its not.

And, what John showed works for me if the boards are wide enough
Author:  Woodie G [ Thu Oct 27, 2016 5:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Rear plate pattern
I assumed the herringbone was a fix for width in the event the sapwood was trimmed out - my mistake! As Mr. Macaluso suggested, using both the herringbone and sapwood would make for a very busy appearance, while sapwood without the purfling seems to me to be interesting, and removing the sapwood just begs for something like some purfling to add a bit of visual interest.
Author:  SteveSmith [ Thu Oct 27, 2016 6:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Rear plate pattern
I should have noted that I do like the look of the herringbone or some other center strip if the sapwood is moved out of the pattern.
Author:  cablepuller1 [ Fri Oct 28, 2016 2:40 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Rear plate pattern
John Lewis wrote:
Image

I would lose the center strip entirely and cut out the sapwood like shown, then join. Turn the joined plate upside down to gain more room for the lower bout - place the upper bout on the end the sapwood was cut out. Just my $.02.

Like most folks are saying either get rid of the herringbone or the sapwood. Don't keep both and I would personally get rid of both. However you join this back, it's going to be pretty.

Thanks John . Appreciate the picture
Author:  kencierp [ Fri Oct 28, 2016 10:04 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Rear plate pattern
My logic is by trimming out the sap wood your assembly you will once again have universal/normal appeal -- future observers will never know and the question of artsy, or weird is non existent.

I like with or without center strip -- depends on how interesting the grain convergence looks.
Author:  Alain Desforges [ Sun Oct 30, 2016 5:43 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Rear plate pattern
Steve beat me to it. What does it look like with the sapwood on the exterior?
Author:  Woodie G [ Sun Oct 30, 2016 6:45 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Rear plate pattern
There are currently three build and one build/repair student in the shop, so we have some interesting discussions when everyone is crowded in to the 1600 square foot main shop. One of the things the boss mentions frequently is the issue of intent, as in whether or not a builder has a clear path to a specific goal when making decisions. In other words, changes which move away from conventional or widely accepted standards must not only be made with clear intent, but they must also appear to have been made in a purposeful manner to others.

An example might be seen in Mr. Desforge's sapwood use on the back and sides of his avatar instrument - it is very clearly intentional on his part, and no reasonable person would conclude that Mr. Desforge selected a back and side set too narrow for the job, or somehow lacked clear intent. While not to everyone's taste - after all, someone bought all those beige Fords back in the 1970s - is is just the sort of instrument that I would expect to be featured in a marque image on the home page of a skilled custom builder.

I believe that some of the reservations expressed earlier in the thread re: sapwood are likely a manifestation of ensuring this element of intent is addressed when playing with accepted design elements. In looking at the photo of the plate again, I can see why there is concern - the sapwood area is small, is lacking in symmetry, and likely is not hinted at elsewhere in the composition, which is to say that it risks looking like something done with less than clear intent.
Author:  cablepuller1 [ Sun Oct 30, 2016 5:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Rear plate pattern
Alain Desforges wrote:
Steve beat me to it. What does it look like with the sapwood on the exterior?

Yes it would be outside the template
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