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| Would you use these tops? https://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=48456 |
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| Author: | Alex Kleon [ Wed Oct 26, 2016 11:01 am ] |
| Post subject: | Would you use these tops? |
I received eight tops with a bit of twist as a free throw in on a purchase a while back, and was wondering if they are worth building with.   I bought way more tops than I need, and may sell some, with these ones as freebees. If they aren't worth building with, I may use them for burst practice. Thanks! Alex Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk |
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| Author: | Michaeldc [ Wed Oct 26, 2016 11:29 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Would you use these tops? |
Alex, The pictures are too far out of focus to give an answer. Best, M |
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| Author: | Clay S. [ Wed Oct 26, 2016 11:31 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Would you use these tops? |
The stripeyness doesn't bother me. If the run out in the bridge area is O.K. and the tops have good stiffness/ weight they could make nice sounding instruments. I have had tops that looked like that, that worked better than the pure white, "wall paper grade, stiff as a wet noodle", tops sometimes sold as premium stuff. But..... If you're the type that buys a thousand dollar back and side set, and spends $600 + for tuners, then you might want to pass on the stripey tops (unless they are red spruce, and then all will be forgiven  ).
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| Author: | jfmckenna [ Wed Oct 26, 2016 12:28 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Would you use these tops? |
I think I can see what you are looking at and I would not worry about it. Was it like that at purchase or after storing it for a while? Did you store it flat, stickered, and under weight? |
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| Author: | Alex Kleon [ Wed Oct 26, 2016 12:50 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Would you use these tops? |
They were like that at purchase. They are just on a flat surface, under their own weight. All the other tops that I got were dead flat. Some of the "A" tops are a bit stripey, some with wider grain, all stiff. The 3A and 2A that I got are quite nice. Alex |
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| Author: | Michael.N. [ Wed Oct 26, 2016 1:01 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Would you use these tops? |
There's a few grains with strong or wide late growth, not supposed to be good. Who knows though. My latest has some pretty wide grain, many makers would have rejected it because of the wide grain. I'm now going to actively seek wide grain. Tells you what I think of it. |
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| Author: | bluescreek [ Wed Oct 26, 2016 1:09 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Would you use these tops? |
I find wide grain often more stiff than narrow . |
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| Author: | DennisK [ Wed Oct 26, 2016 1:11 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Would you use these tops? |
Can't tell just by looking. Tap on 'em and see how they sound. Measure the density and Young's modulus. Check the runout (cut a bit off and split it if you can't see it any other way). Most spruce trees grow in a spiral pattern so there's no way to get runout-free tops, but it can at least be minimized by proper splitting and sawing. If you have time, watch them in various humidity conditions and see if they move. The twist may have happened during the drying process as a result of the spiral grain, and be perfectly stable now. And even if they move a little bit, the braces should generally hold them in the proper shape anyway. |
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| Author: | Chris Pile [ Wed Oct 26, 2016 1:29 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Would you use these tops? |
If you are really worried, just send them to me for disposal.... I'd even pay the shipping and handling. |
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| Author: | meddlingfool [ Wed Oct 26, 2016 1:33 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Would you use these tops? |
Yes. |
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| Author: | meddlingfool [ Wed Oct 26, 2016 1:35 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Would you use these tops? |
Or at least, if there's not other reasons not to use them, the twist is inconsequential, though it makes jointing a tad more irritating. |
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| Author: | printer2 [ Wed Oct 26, 2016 5:43 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Would you use these tops? |
If need be take a clothes iron and a little water to them. Then sticker them or join them while they are still flat. You are probably going to put a radius into them anyway so the wood will be in tension in places. I have a few pieces with some twist after I baked them. when time comes to use them I might pop them in the oven for a few minutes or iron them. If we can bend sides with would we can coax it flat also. |
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| Author: | Alex Kleon [ Wed Oct 26, 2016 5:52 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Would you use these tops? |
Personally, I find the snowy white/perfect grain tops rather unattractive. I much prefer tops that have some features that make you realize that it is actually wood, while having the structural properties that you would want in a top. I also realize that what paying customers usually want is the perfect looking top. Likely, I'll never have a paying customer, just give aways to friends and relatives. That's why I got these tops. I just need to get rid of a bunch of the A grades to free up some shelf space. Thanks for the replies, everyone, and I knew there would be at least one big hearted guy (Chris) offer to help me out! ....and sorry for the BIG pics, and small print! Alex |
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| Author: | jshelton [ Wed Oct 26, 2016 5:54 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Would you use these tops? |
I hate twisted tops. I wouldn't use them under any circumstances. |
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| Author: | Don Williams [ Wed Oct 26, 2016 7:26 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Would you use these tops? |
<sigh> I wish people would stop expressing opinions that have little to no experience or science to back them up. That's all I'm saying... |
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| Author: | Clay S. [ Thu Oct 27, 2016 11:02 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Would you use these tops? |
"<sigh> I wish people would stop expressing opinions that have little to no experience or science to back them up. That's all I'm saying..." Unfortunately Don, soundboard grading is done more like a Beauty Pageant than on scientific criteria. As such, what people base their opinions on has a wide degree of latitude. |
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| Author: | ernie [ Thu Oct 27, 2016 11:37 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Would you use these tops? |
Perhaps, you can use the tops for smaller instruments, ukes , mandolins etc.where you can out only the better parts .I/ve read in romanillos book abt using 4 piece tops, and selecting the better parts of the top for the middle and the twisted or undesirable part sfor the outer edges where part of it will be cut away.. Good luck alex. |
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| Author: | Clinchriver [ Thu Oct 27, 2016 1:50 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Would you use these tops? |
Depending on the tap and how stiff, yes |
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| Author: | Alex Kleon [ Thu Oct 27, 2016 1:57 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Would you use these tops? |
Like I said, if I sell off some of the extra tops that I have, I'll sandwich them with a set of the twisted ones for free as part of the packaging. OR I'll use them for experimentation in my little shop of horrors! Alex |
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| Author: | Hesh [ Fri Oct 28, 2016 4:36 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Would you use these tops? |
I agree with Don. We had a beautiful Collings in the shop yesterday chasing a buzz for the client. Just about every single element that has been listed above as an indication of an inferior top was present in this top, Adi BTW. The guitar sounded absolutely killer in all respects once the buzz was eliminated.... and it was one of the best sounding guitars that I've heard in some months. The point here is that the maker.... us.... we the Luthiers...  are also variables and how we deal with our materials can make or break a guitar for better or worse.It's true that a great guitar may be the sum of it's parts but I would gladly add anyway that part of those parts are the skill, dedication, knowledge, perhaps a touch of luck, and according to TJ Thompson the goodness in one's heart.... of the Luthier. Put that in your pipe and smoke it and if you do invite me over and share please...
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| Author: | Bryan Bear [ Fri Oct 28, 2016 10:08 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Would you use these tops? |
I think you have enough answers but I'll add anyway. . . If all the other aspects of the top meet your expectations (whatever they are since we will all have different preferences), I wouldn't be too worried about a little twist. As long as you can press them flat enough to joint them well and the jointed tops will push flat enough for thicknessing, everything should be okay. At the final thickness of a top once it is braced, domed and glued to the ribs, it should be fine. If the twist is enough to make you worry that it won't conform then don't use them. In short, Yes I would use them (as far as I can tell from the pictures). |
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| Author: | William Bustard [ Fri Oct 28, 2016 1:26 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Would you use these tops? |
Any minor warps or twists should be inconsequential. they could be used structurally. One might use the natural aspects of the wood in the construction as a benefit. JMHO |
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| Author: | Nils [ Fri Oct 28, 2016 4:13 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Would you use these tops? |
Absolutely! In my experience, a piece of wood has to be extremely awful before you start actually running into issues. With that being said, I always brace each top based on how strong/nice I think it is. If a top doesn't have all the signs of a premium cut, consider adding some extra perpendicular grafts of wood to stabilize it...and if you've stabilized it with some perpendicular grafts, consider making some of your more primary braces lighter. I realize you weren't looking for advice on how to brace a top. These are just my initial thoughts. I also build with my lowest quality cuts of wood first. I have never regretted it. I have also never had more tops on hand than I would use, so my approach might inherently be a tad different. |
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| Author: | JSDenvir [ Fri Oct 28, 2016 8:54 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Would you use these tops? |
Hesh wrote: It's true that a great guitar may be the sum of it's parts but I would gladly add anyway that part of those parts are the skill, dedication, knowledge, perhaps a touch of luck, and according to TJ Thompson the goodness in one's heart.... of the Luthier. Put that in your pipe and smoke it and if you do invite me over and share please... Hey Hesh, I have to admit to being fascinated by that quote from TJ Thompson. I believe the gist of it was that only a good person can make a good guitar. I'm sure I'm paraphrasing horribly, but I find it a really interesting idea. That the personality of the luthier shows up in the finished product. I'd swear here, but I know it's not allowed, and I wouldn't want anyone to think less of my guitars Steve |
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| Author: | Alex Kleon [ Fri Oct 28, 2016 9:21 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Would you use these tops? |
When did you start swearing, Steve? Alex |
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