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Interesting article on creativity
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Author:  Jim Watts [ Sat Nov 14, 2015 6:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Interesting article on creativity
I came across an interesting short article today concerning creativity on the BBC website. I thought others might find it interesting too. I believe it to be applicable to our craft, particularly the concept of quality vs. quantity.

Here's the link: http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-34775411

The way I approach my work, I'd fall into the group of potters who were graded on quality as I suspect most of us would. It's some food for thought however at least for me.
Author:  Alex Kleon [ Sat Nov 14, 2015 6:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Interesting article on creativity
Interesting article, Jim. I'd say that I would be in the same group as you. When doing a large cabinetry job, I've learned to process the large parts first, so that any mistakes can be used for the next sized part!

Alex
Author:  Pegasusguitars [ Sat Nov 14, 2015 7:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Interesting article on creativity
Jim--That is interesting. I think the idea is correct. It is difficult, if not impossible, to produce consistent quality without experience. It is especially interesting to see that the study shows quality increases in a short period of time simply due to quantity production. I think many of us tend to think of quality in terms of something learned over years. This assumes the builder who produces a lot wants to learn to produce quality. Not always the case. Sometimes the goal is purely monetary. Along with making instruments, I have sold wood to builders for 40 years. I truly wish that builders would do their quantity learning stage using lower grade materials. In these days of the internet, books, videos, etc., many new builders think that stuff can replace experience. They start out wanting to build with the finest materials, and there goes another irreplaceable piece of nature! One of the issues with getting old, I'm 70 in a couple of months, is that I can no longer work in larger quantities or fast speeds, so the learning curve gets slower. Working til' midnight has been replaced by having to quit at 4 or 5 in the afternoon. Still, I do learn something every single day in the shop. Remembering it is another matter! Thanks for the posting the link. Enjoy your building.---Bob
Author:  ernie [ Sat Nov 14, 2015 8:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Interesting article on creativity
I/m in . The best ideas are brought about through repetition, and working in multiples like bob I just turned 68. I need more break /slack time. I try to work through a palette of different coloured woods and see which ones line up. Creativity seems to be a never ending process of refining every aspect of my work.
Author:  Bob Shanklin [ Sat Nov 14, 2015 8:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Interesting article on creativity
I think I fall in the quantity group. If I'm not making mistakes, I am not learning anything.

Bob
Author:  DannyV [ Sun Nov 15, 2015 12:15 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Interesting article on creativity
Pegasusguitars wrote:
Remembering it is another matter!


Not to mention eye sight. [headinwall]

I know not doable but it would be cool to see a photo series of all the regulars builds over the years and how they have evolved. I've had a few "design" attempts that didn't make it.

So Jim (or anyone else), can you think of one thing you have learned over the years that you consistently try to incorporate into your builds?

For me, I'm no artist. One thing I do try for is some flow. A well respected builder mentioned to me you should be able to take 3 photos of random parts of a guitar and be able to identify them as the same guitar. That's something in the last couple years I've tried to do, to at least make up for my lack of creativity.

Thanks for the read.

Cheers,
Danny
Author:  Chris Pile [ Sun Nov 15, 2015 12:23 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Interesting article on creativity
Author of said article has merely pointed out the obvious.

Thomas Edison learned best from his failures. So have many other people.

How many old aphorisms apply here?
When all else fails, try, try again.
Practice makes perfect.
How do you get to Carnegie Hall? Practice, practice, practice.

I'm sure you can come up with more of them....
Author:  Pegasusguitars [ Sun Nov 15, 2015 1:19 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Interesting article on creativity
Jim, In spite of the article merely pointing out the obvious, thanks again for the post. I obviously had some fun with it. Most of what I do is obvious, which is obviously why I don't post much.Good luck with all your projects.--Bob
Author:  Mike_P [ Sun Nov 15, 2015 7:59 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Interesting article on creativity
huh...I came away with the impression the real difference being discussed was between dreamers and actual doers...

the doer actually produces something and while trying to do their best (in theory) still make errors (which in theory they learn from and don't repeat)...this means they actually produced something, e.g. quantity.

the dreamer just fiddles around and because they are looking for 'perfection' they never do anything real.
Author:  Clinchriver [ Sun Nov 15, 2015 9:05 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Interesting article on creativity
Mike_P wrote:
huh...I came away with the impression the real difference being discussed was between dreamers and actual doers...

the doer actually produces something and while trying to do their best (in theory) still make errors (which in theory they learn from and don't repeat)...this means they actually produced something, e.g. quantity.

the dreamer just fiddles around and because they are looking for 'perfection' they never do anything real.




Yup
Author:  Mike_P [ Sun Nov 15, 2015 10:12 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Interesting article on creativity
I will make one addendum...

a 'real' doer will also be looking for perfection...by observing what they have done and reflecting upon how it could have been better...in a long project making the effort to think ahead and anticipate problems before they occur and figuring solutions...by being focused and stopping work before destruction occurs (big 'joke' of woodworkers is real productivity is defined by how quickly one rectifies a mistake) and solving the issue...blah, blah, blah...in the big picture of an artisan quality can many times be paramount over quantity...BUT the work must still get done...

a prime example from my life would be my new avatar...in spite of being repeatedly bullied by the superintendent of the job I REFUSED to run a router on that blank until I figured out how to do it and not completely destroy all the work that had gone into creating a 'perfect' straight, spiral helix, straight, spiral helix blank of 21' long, 2 3/8" wide and 2 1/4" tall...

solution? long story as to how it got figured, but while thinning the blank I noticed things...in the end said 'solution' was 4 different router bases of wood shaped to the straight (no shaping, just needed to be flat), the spiral (a flat 4"x4" piece of wood while touching at 3 points would be 3/16" in the air at the other point), and bases for traversing the humps and valleys at the points of inflection of transition to a 33.5* pitch on the straight to the 45.5* pitch of the spiral...and that was only the first part of the 'solution'...big problem was the router bit provided to me to shape the main profile of the sides...hahahahahaha...huge a$$ bit where any mistake would result in TOTAL failure because of the bead detail 3/8" up from the bottom...the 'real' solution was the use of a stock adjustable rabbiting bit (multiple bearings provided) to create the flat surface on the bottom, then the custom ordering of 3 other bits to be run separately...a beading bit for the bead detail with bearing on top to ride on the rabbet that was created in the first step of shaping, a huge modified rail bit (modified by removing the bead detail from it) that had a bearing on top and bottom, then a bit made to shape the ~18" radius curve on the top (bearing on top and bottom also). 'solution' worked but was problematic in that the big bits had a LOT of wobble to them...in the end it got done

point being, at some point quantity cannot occur without 'dreaming'
Author:  Clinchriver [ Sun Nov 15, 2015 1:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Interesting article on creativity
Mike_P wrote:
I will make one addendum...

a 'real' doer will also be looking for perfection...by observing what they have done and reflecting upon how it could have been better...in a long project making the effort to think ahead and anticipate problems before they occur and figuring solutions...by being focused and stopping work before destruction occurs (big 'joke' of woodworkers is real productivity is defined by how quickly one rectifies a mistake) and solving the issue...blah, blah, blah...in the big picture of an artisan quality can many times be paramount over quantity...BUT the work must still get done...

a prime example from my life would be my new avatar...in spite of being repeatedly bullied by the superintendent of the job I REFUSED to run a router on that blank until I figured out how to do it and not completely destroy all the work that had gone into creating a 'perfect' straight, spiral helix, straight, spiral helix blank of 21' long, 2 3/8" wide and 2 1/4" tall...

solution? long story as to how it got figured, but while thinning the blank I noticed things...in the end said 'solution' was 4 different router bases of wood shaped to the straight (no shaping, just needed to be flat), the spiral (a flat 4"x4" piece of wood while touching at 3 points would be 3/16" in the air at the other point), and bases for traversing the humps and valleys at the points of inflection of transition to a 33.5* pitch on the straight to the 45.5* pitch of the spiral...and that was only the first part of the 'solution'...big problem was the router bit provided to me to shape the main profile of the sides...hahahahahaha...huge a$$ bit where any mistake would result in TOTAL failure because of the bead detail 3/8" up from the bottom...the 'real' solution was the use of a stock adjustable rabbiting bit (multiple bearings provided) to create the flat surface on the bottom, then the custom ordering of 3 other bits to be run separately...a beading bit for the bead detail with bearing on top to ride on the rabbet that was created in the first step of shaping, a huge modified rail bit (modified by removing the bead detail from it) that had a bearing on top and bottom, then a bit made to shape the ~18" radius curve on the top (bearing on top and bottom also). 'solution' worked but was problematic in that the big bits had a LOT of wobble to them...in the end it got done

point being, at some point quantity cannot occur without 'dreaming'


I take quite a bit of kidding from our local luthier group because I will "burn one" Rather than waste a ton of time fixing a problem (which I will know is there forever), I get rid of the problem and start from scratch with a lesson learned :mrgreen:
Author:  truckjohn [ Sun Nov 15, 2015 5:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Interesting article on creativity
So.... It's not any old practice that makes perfect but rather focused practice.

For example - Thomas Edison didn't achieve all that success by random agitation - but rather by trying, testing, reformulating, and trying again.

That's how I learned jointing tops and backs. At first - I was trying based on what people say and it just wasn't working - I finally got my head around what's going on and then jointing became predictable. I jointed two 13 piece tops out of sliced 2x4 pieces and finally got it after cutting about half the joints back apart - so somewhere around 40 tries to get a predictable jointing process.

Honestly, I need to do the same with binding - just rout the whole thing back off if it doesn't come out right. Probably after 30 or 40 tries - I will have it.

Thanks.
John
Author:  Jim Watts [ Sun Nov 15, 2015 5:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Interesting article on creativity
I think a lot of it comes down the old Nike motto of "Just Do It". I know from experience it's easy to get bogged down by analyzing every aspect of every operation. This can really slow you down, interrupting the work flow which will ultimately impede your/my progress as a builder. I’m not trying to say that it makes sense to just repetitively crank out junk, but maybe moving forward quickly in methodical manner will get you a lot further down the road than over analyzing every operation.
Now if I could only get my employer to agree that it’s a good thing that I’m on my 5,000 revision of that design they’ve been waiting on!
Author:  kencierp [ Sun Nov 15, 2015 6:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Interesting article on creativity
I believe the saying is "necessity is the mother of invention/creativity". Pure artists have the luxury of placing zero monetary value on their time. So it seems to a large extent ego controls the decision as to when a project no longer has any material value. And for that matter what and when something gets attention.

As a matter of economics, working artisans need to focus on some measure of "value add" -- there in the "time is money phrase" comes into play. I suppose that is why its said that great craftsman are those that are able to "create process and make invisible repairs and also know when a project is beyond that point" -- and a fresh start is really needed.

Going back to my automotive days -- we strove for continuous improvement in virtually every facet of the business, so I suppose in that context creativity led the way. Seems it took a long time for many to get it, but the reality is --- without superior quality and customer satisfaction -- how fast and how many of something can be produced, really does not mean diddly.
Author:  Hesh [ Sun Nov 15, 2015 6:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Interesting article on creativity
Ken a tale of two businesses if you will:

Ann Arbor Guitars is approaching three years old now. When we opened our doors shortly thereafter a "committee" of eight "artists" leased the floors below us and opened an art gallery....

Two new businesses, untested, both hoping to realize significant economic success through the pedaling of our wares and services. Both in the same building, same address and same upscale, affluent local market. Both businesses were largely dependent on the disposable income of others.

The gallery people very much viewed Dave and I as heathen, blue collar sorts who would soon surely go teats up trying as we might to produce revenue from our value add which was and is repairing and restoring plucked, stringed instruments.

Time passed and we rarely saw anything leaving the gallery wrapped up in packaging, etc. The gallery folks became more militant and stressed and started fighting with us, our mutual landlord, and then each other until the original gang of eight was now four grumpy, tired, and stressed individuals who did not even want to staff their gallery anymore.

Eighteen months to the day (I'll add as predicted....) they closed their door for the final time. As for we blue collar dudes endlessly toiling by candle light with sharp chisel in hand by the end of this year our annual sales will be near double from when we started.

Now we have attorneys moving into our building and one of them is our new landlord and we like him and his people very much. He has a client and it's part of the musical industry who polices streamed music and intellectual property of musicians and studios. What a great fit for us because our landlord's major client is a great fit for the services that we offer too since we are also servicing some pretty famous musicians at times.

At the end of the day businesses come and go every single day but the ones who endure are the ones who provide real value in what they do and client satisfaction is very much part of this as well. We offer a 100% money back guarantee which is unheard of in the Lutherie world and if our clients are not happy with the results we rip up the bill and or make it right, client's choice.

As for artists..... not wanting to generalize but man oh man those folks who shared our building just could not get out of their own way.... One of them would get a headache so they would close for the day. When they were open they would place their placards in the middle of the public sidewalk letting blind folks run into them..... Talk about oblivious.....

Regarding the need to understand that things have to be completed on time and on budget and actually called "done" at some point this is a common problem in our trade. It seems that many Luthiers, mostly the new ones, wrongly believe that they need to be all things to all folks.

If a job comes in and you don't want to do it, can't do it, the job will suck because the OEM used unsound practices such as the case with Ov*tion, decline the job, next! Sadly many newer Luthiers will attempt to reset necks with dowelled neck joints when the economics (value of the instrument vs. price of the repair) are not there. What results is that they get bogged down, break something, the scope of the project greatly expands and likely the results will suffer too. All the while that 20 hours that the stinkin thing that should have been turned away sucked has an opportunity cost of the going rate per hour that one could have billed in their respective market.

Honesty is ALWAYS the best policy in business IME and sometimes that honesty will be winning and serve the client very well too.

We often preface advice with "this is how we are currently doing it" because we too continuously strive to improve and usually a month does not go by that we are not adding new capabilities to our quiver of tricks. This means our methods change, tools too, and with that the goal is that the value that we provide continuously increases as well.

Improve, grow or die....
Author:  DannyV [ Sun Nov 15, 2015 9:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Interesting article on creativity
Mike_P wrote:

a prime example from my life would be my new avatar...

Glad you brought that up Mike. I was wanting to comment on it. Looks spectacular! Figured it must be some of your work. Lot of things you said hit home. Not only how fast you fix errors but how creatively . My woodworking past has saved a few very nice back and side sets.

Funny. Working with my wife who is very capable and always has projects on the go but doesn't have a lot of experience. Me, "so how's it going to finish". Her, "I don't know. That's why I married to you".

Cheers,
Danny
Author:  DennisK [ Sun Nov 15, 2015 10:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Interesting article on creativity
Pegasusguitars wrote:
I truly wish that builders would do their quantity learning stage using lower grade materials. In these days of the internet, books, videos, etc., many new builders think that stuff can replace experience. They start out wanting to build with the finest materials, and there goes another irreplaceable piece of nature!

I agree with the sentiment, but in reality it hardly matters when there are so many factories devouring the spruce forests cranking out tens of thousands of cheap guitars per year. Sure the super fancy back/side woods are precious too, but they're much less necessary to make great guitars, so a few sets going to inspire newbies isn't the end of the world. And it seems that the ones using them early on are the quality over quantity type, so it's less likely to make a huge dent in the supply.

I'm definitely in the quality group. Way too slow to do quantity, and if I ever try to do something fast it usually turns out far less satisfying... if I finish it at all.

I don't think the article quite captures the full picture. The best artists/craftsmen do seem to be quantity types, so that's why they stood out when the test was done. But I'd put money on it that it was only the ones who were naturally inclined that way, and the naturally quality-focused people who were put into the quantity group just churned out piles of crap, with a few interesting but poorly executed ideas mixed in.
Author:  jfmckenna [ Mon Nov 16, 2015 8:44 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Interesting article on creativity
I've always been a cross that bridge when I get to it kind of guy. Dive right in and just solve any of the problems I create. That was my approach to my guitar building when I started. I knew I would not build the perfect guitar on the first try never mind the tenth. So I just went at it and I still go at it. Many years ago an anal retentive aerospace engineer friend of mine wanted to build a guitar. It took him two years because everything had to be so well thought out and executed prior to actually doing it. It was amusing to watch and at the same time frustrating. As would be expected it was a good guitar but it was still a first guitar.
Author:  Terence Kennedy [ Mon Nov 16, 2015 3:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Interesting article on creativity
Great article. Couldn't agree more .

At my first GAL convention around 2004 Kenny Hill gave a great talk for new builders that echoed the same sentiments. His advice similar to Dory's in Finding Nemo. "Just keep building ".

When I first ordered wood from Walter Lipton at Euphonon he asked me how many I had built. I think it was five or six. His response? "I can't give you the good stuff yet ".
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