Which way is forward?
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| Intonation and saddle contact points https://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=46653 |
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| Author: | Mike OMelia [ Thu Nov 12, 2015 8:56 am ] |
| Post subject: | Intonation and saddle contact points |
Once a saddle has been rough shaped in for expected intonation (I use 1/8" saddles), which way do you move the contact point given that the string is sharp or flat? |
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| Author: | Tom West [ Thu Nov 12, 2015 9:01 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Intonation and saddle contact points |
If it's sharp, move toward the tail pin. If you are set up for action you can make up a false saddle( ebony works) with a flat top but lower by the dia. of a b string. Put a hockey shaped piece of b string between the guitar string and the saddle. Check the intonation and move the hockey stick back and forth until you are happy. Take a sharp pencil and mark the saddle on either side of the b string hockey stick. Do this for each string and you should be in the ball park. Transfer marks to the official saddle. Not sure if you can follow my rambles but it's quite easy to apply this technique. One more thing, I use a saddle that is at least 3/16" wide. Tom |
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| Author: | Greg Maxwell [ Thu Nov 12, 2015 9:15 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Intonation and saddle contact points |
Sharp = Short. In other words, lengthen the contact if the string is sharp (move toward the rear of the saddle) and move toward the front for flat strings. Use the open string and the note fretted at the 12th fret, not the harmonic, to set intonation. You can get some correction with a 1/8" wide saddle but most acoustic guitars have some compromise when it comes to perfect intonation. |
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| Author: | jfmckenna [ Thu Nov 12, 2015 12:11 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Intonation and saddle contact points |
I always remember, Flat - Forward. |
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| Author: | J De Rocher [ Thu Nov 12, 2015 3:21 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Intonation and saddle contact points |
Which way is forward?
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| Author: | Hesh [ Thu Nov 12, 2015 4:17 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Intonation and saddle contact points |
No way man.....  If it's sharp make it longer.... Flat make it shorter..... Assuming the nut is fixed you will know what to do. Here's another related question. Make that set of lights, 12's now 13's what happens to the intonation points all other things remaining the same? 1) they move forward, toward the sound hole 2) they move back toward the butt wedge 3) it does not matter, all guitars sound like crap anyway.... |
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| Author: | Alex Kleon [ Thu Nov 12, 2015 4:21 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Intonation and saddle contact points |
#1 (based on my complex multiple choice guessing calculations) Alex |
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| Author: | Michaeldc [ Thu Nov 12, 2015 4:26 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Intonation and saddle contact points |
I'm also gonna go with #1 |
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| Author: | powdrell [ Thu Nov 12, 2015 4:40 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Intonation and saddle contact points |
break point moves forward with thicker strings...flatting the notes a bit... |
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| Author: | Hesh [ Thu Nov 12, 2015 5:04 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Intonation and saddle contact points |
Sorry guys if I understand your answers correctly the answer should be #2. Here's how you can visualize and prove this to yourselves. Take a look at a properly intonated electric or acoustic and focus on the high e and the b string. The b is a thicker string and as such we intonate it closer to the butt wedge or back. The same holds true when we increase the string diameter. There is more to it but most of the time this holds true. Things such as wound or not, tuning, tension all come into play too but generally speaking, standard tunings, etc. as the thickness increases the sting's speaking length gets longer to properly be intonated. |
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| Author: | Mike OMelia [ Fri Nov 13, 2015 1:26 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Intonation and saddle contact points |
The reason I asked was because of this video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q9ywORU5EUs&sns=em |
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| Author: | Hesh [ Fri Nov 13, 2015 8:06 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Intonation and saddle contact points |
Mike O'Melia wrote: The reason I asked was because of this video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q9ywORU5EUs&sns=em This video which is well done IMO is an excellent example of why videos were never the end all to be all for instructional Lutherie. If you can completely set-up a guitar perfectly solely from this video I will be very, very surprised. Again the video is a good one but what is lacking are a whole lot of things.... 1) In person instruction provides hands on instruction and you can even leave the place with a completely fretted instrument for less than the cost of having the fret job done professionally, a lot less.... 2) In person instruction is interactive so what ever concerns YOU have will be addressed likely until the dead horse is begging for mercy.... Hope PETA does not read this.....   I plan of starting PETG, people for the ethical treatment of guitars.... but I digress.3) Don't know about you but I can't see a thing in this video that Andy is looking at including measurements, exactly where and how he is taking them, etc. 4) And here the biggie. Andy is setting up an instrument that has already had a life as a guitar. For we builders set-ups need to address at times issues of something that has never yet been a successful guitar. So neck angle, relief, fret work, making a nut, where the saddle should've been, etc. are all concerns that one does not have with a well made Taylor. I learned a great deal from Frank Finnochio's excellent videos but of course there is no interaction, opportunity to ask questions, make stupid comments, you know all the stuff that I thrive on was not present. This is debate season in Merica... and as I remain non-partisan here is the analogy. Would a political debate best be described with some select still photos or in a video? Would that debate be perhaps even more useful if one was in the audience and capable of asking questions (or throwing feces at the candidates...)? Anyway if one does not know what to expect making the true goal undefined it's very unlikely that a video will get you where you want to go IMO. Lastly when I was a builder I used to take my lunch and go sit in the empty, moldy humidifier room at G*itar C*nter instead of eating lunch. I would play the Taylors, Martins, Breeds, G*bsons etc. in an effort to have a mental definition of what exactly a great guitar was. Or, in other words, f*ctory guitars were never the goal but the competition for me and my business plan was to hopefully exceed the value of the commercial, f*ctory offerings in hopefully every significant and important way. So Hesh what's the point.... The point is that if you plan on or do sell your creations to many of us the expectation is that all of the details, fretting, set-up, etc. besides fit and finish, bling, tone, etc. have to be on par with the best of the commercially available f*ctory stuff or better. By the way better is not difficult, f*ctory guitars are a pretty low bar IMO.In time I stopped having lunch in the moldy humidifier room because it had served it purpose to me in helping me to determine the standards for the important stuff that I would strive to meet or exceed. How valuable would a video of watching someone else check out the moldy humidifier room be compared to the value possible if it was you spending 30 lunch hours checking out the competition in person? Don't get me wrong, videos are an excellent approach but for some things they are not good enough. |
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| Author: | Mike OMelia [ Fri Nov 13, 2015 8:55 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Intonation and saddle contact points |
Ok, I thinki got the idea now. |
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| Author: | Terence Kennedy [ Fri Nov 13, 2015 12:06 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Intonation and saddle contact points |
You really see it with a wound vs unwound G. The wound with a small core diameter needs a forward break point while the unwound with a thick core winds up back. |
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| Author: | Tom West [ Fri Nov 13, 2015 2:13 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Intonation and saddle contact points |
Mike: What is your concern about the video.....? Tom |
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| Author: | Jeff Highland [ Fri Nov 13, 2015 3:53 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Intonation and saddle contact points |
IMHO there is a lot wrong with this video and the associated premier guitar article -Neck relief, the video says it is 12 thou the article says it was 22 and adjusted down to a perfect 15. this is around 3 times as much as I would aim for. -The order of the how he approaches the job makes no sense, there is no point checking the intonation on a guitar which has high action, this should be addressed first. -There is no explanation of why he makes a new saddle. with the action that high, he could have just reworked the existing. And a few other things that niggle. |
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| Author: | doncaparker [ Tue Nov 17, 2015 7:54 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Intonation and saddle contact points |
I think maybe the reason some folks thought possibility #1 was the right answer is because you see that happen sometimes with electric guitars. Switching to a lighter gauge can cause a need to move the individual saddles back in order to correct the intonation. So, it would stand to reason that switching to a thicker gauge can cause a need to move the saddles up. However, with thicker strings, pushing the strings down onto the frets tends to make the note go sharper than with thinner strings, assuming decent playing technique (not pushing excessively hard). I guess my point is that there are multiple factors that affect intonation, and it can be hard to predict with precision. Adjusting it empirically is the best thing. |
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