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Plastic binding and purfling
https://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=45918		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  Cablepuller [ Sun Jun 21, 2015 12:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Plastic binding and purfling
Hi

Tried bending ripple sycamore binding..again with poor equipment and had one snap and one crack

Thinking might be more cost effective and less stressful to use plastic version
I know wood binding is better but until i can afford to spend on better bending gear plastics are gonna have to be used

Can anyone recommend a good plastic binding that doesn't look cheap
The stuff on ebay is a minefield of good/bad. . Nothing blingy

Cheers
Author:  Tai Fu [ Sun Jun 21, 2015 12:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Plastic binding and purfling
just plain white/black/cream will do.... sometimes less is more.

My trouble with wood binding isn't bending them. I've been able to bend it fairly well with a bending iron. My trouble is putting them on. The wood ones refuses to fit properly and would often require a huge amount of force before it will come together without significant gap. I think plastic ought to be much easier to deal with. Gaps in plastic (especially plain plastic) binding is also very easy to fill in invisibly.
Author:  kencierp [ Sun Jun 21, 2015 1:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Plastic binding and purfling
Getting wood binding that is too thick or too tall to follow the normal 15' radius back curvature can be troublesome -- bending a tight waist is challenging also. Plastic can look good and just may be a good idea for a first or second build. I would not mess around with the stuff on Ebay in an effort to save a buck or two. Buy from Lmii or SM.
Author:  SteveSmith [ Sun Jun 21, 2015 1:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Plastic binding and purfling
Plastic is easy. Black looks about the same as ebony even side by side unless the ebony has some brown in it. Wood binding takes more practice to get right - the key is bending it so it fits well enough.
Author:  Colin North [ Sun Jun 21, 2015 3:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Plastic binding and purfling
Have a look here.
http://www.rothkoandfrost.com/binding-and-purfling-materials/
I've used their tortoiseshell and it was fine.
A little warm up with a hair drier and they become very compliant.
Author:  J De Rocher [ Sun Jun 21, 2015 4:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Plastic binding and purfling
I used sycamore binding on my second guitar. I bent it on a hot pipe and it was a bit tricky to do it without cracking or breaking it. I've bound two guitars with tortoise celluloid binding and it was very easy and there were no gaps.

If you decided to use some type of celluloid binding, be sure that you place an order more than you think you need so that you don't run short and have to place a second order for just one or two pieces. Celluloid is classified as a hazardous material for shipping purposes and there is a fixed charge of almost $30 that is added on top of the normal shipping charge. You only want to pay that once.
Author:  Cablepuller [ Sun Jun 21, 2015 4:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Plastic binding and purfling
Colin North wrote:
Have a look here.
http://www.rothkoandfrost.com/binding-and-purfling-materials/
I've used their tortoiseshell and it was fine.
A little warm up with a hair drier and they become very compliant.

Great website that colin.. cant believe it never came up on any searches before .. cheers
Author:  Colin North [ Sun Jun 21, 2015 5:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Plastic binding and purfling
Cablepuller wrote:
Colin North wrote:
Have a look here.
http://www.rothkoandfrost.com/binding-and-purfling-materials/
I've used their tortoiseshell and it was fine.
A little warm up with a hair drier and they become very compliant.

Great website that colin.. cant believe it never came up on any searches before .. cheers

I originally found them on ebay, and then bought directly from their website, stuff seems like reasonably good quality if sometimes a little more expensive.
They don't come up on google until page 8 when searching for "luthier supplies uk"
Author:  Mike OMelia [ Sun Jun 21, 2015 9:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Plastic binding and purfling
Wood binding is def a difficult thing. Because of that, it's why u see it in custom builds like we do here. After 20 builds I still struggle with it. Clamps and cauls special built for the application. And patience. I wish there was an easy answer, but I haven't found it.
Author:  Cablepuller [ Mon Jun 22, 2015 12:48 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Plastic binding and purfling
Mike O'Melia wrote:
Wood binding is def a difficult thing. Because of that, it's why u see it in custom builds like we do here. After 20 builds I still struggle with it. Clamps and cauls special built for the application. And patience. I wish there was an easy answer, but I haven't found it.

Glad its not just me... i didnt give it a thought ..just assumed it was a straightforward stage as its so much smaller than bending the sides.. i now know differently
Cheers
Author:  Cush [ Mon Jun 22, 2015 8:42 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Plastic binding and purfling
All binding materials have there own advantages and disadvantages. I don't like plastic and prefer to use wood or fiber for binding. Like Steve said about wood binding " the key is bending it so it fits well enough " that is the best way to get a good result. If the binding is bent to fit exactly, the glue up goes easy. Having a good way to bend the binding is important, and with some practice it isn't too time consuming. Plastic is great for binding and is easy to bend and fit but I don't like to work with it or the glues for it. If I want black and white I use fiber veneer cut in strips low cost and easy to bend. :)
Author:  alan stassforth [ Mon Jun 22, 2015 9:40 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Plastic binding and purfling
I've learned the trick for wood is spend a lot of time dry fitting.
A little back cut on the narrow edge where it meets the body,
and the special heavy duty masking tape from LMI.
I actually like the look of wood or plastic the same.
My next build will have tortoise shell plastic from LMI.
LMI has 2 types, and I will go with the more figured version.
Alan
Author:  lactose [ Mon Jun 22, 2015 11:58 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Plastic binding and purfling
If I had read this thread before my last one, I probably wouldn't have attempted the rosewood. I did have the problems mentioned here (bending to the exact right shape and holding it tight while drying). I ended up with a couple of gaps (gap between back and binding, and also binding rising in the channel leaving a gap underneath). I filled these with dust and CA, and I have to point them out for anyone else to see them. The instrument was only for me, so not a big problem. Funny how, when you're an amateur, you just launch launch into things some people think are hard (like fanned frets). When you're starting out, it all seems equally hard.
Author:  dzsmith [ Mon Jun 22, 2015 12:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Plastic binding and purfling
A clamping jig works great for wood and plastic.
Author:  J De Rocher [ Mon Jun 22, 2015 2:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Plastic binding and purfling
That's interesting. How exactly do you use that to bend wood binding?
Author:  Greg B [ Mon Jun 22, 2015 2:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Plastic binding and purfling
Unlike apparently almost everyone else on this forum, I often prefer the looks of plastic binding, at least on a steel string guitar.

Difficultly for me is 6 of one, half dozen of the other. Wood has to be bent more precisely, but it's easier to scrape down than plastic.

The whole hand built guitar thing seems to have started (at least in the USA) mostly in the 70s, in a time where building a wooden camper shell for your pickup truck was normal. Hence wood bindings for hand-built guitars became the norm. Back to nature man. That's my theory anyway. :)
Author:  Cablepuller [ Mon Jun 22, 2015 2:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Plastic binding and purfling
dzsmith wrote:
A clamping jig works great for wood and plastic.

Thats intresting jig dzsmith.. how do you soften the wood or is it for after you have shaped it
Author:  dzsmith [ Mon Jun 22, 2015 2:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Plastic binding and purfling
J De Rocher wrote:
That's interesting. How exactly do you use that to bend wood binding?

Sorry, the jig is used for drying / cooling the bent binding so it retains it's shape.
Author:  Alex Kleon [ Mon Jun 22, 2015 2:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Plastic binding and purfling
dzsmith wrote:
J De Rocher wrote:
That's interesting. How exactly do you use that to bend wood binding?

Sorry, the jig is used for drying / cooling the bent binding so it retains it's shape.


That's similar to my jig for gluing solid linings, Dan. If you were to make two piece bindings, and glue them together in that jig, it would keep it's shape without spring back.

Alex
Author:  dzsmith [ Mon Jun 22, 2015 5:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Plastic binding and purfling
I've done one plastic binding. Heating and forming it was easy.
Gluing was a mess.
I used Weldon #16.
What works better?
Author:  Tai Fu [ Mon Jun 22, 2015 7:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Plastic binding and purfling
CA works well
Author:  J De Rocher [ Mon Jun 22, 2015 9:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Plastic binding and purfling
dzsmith wrote:
I've done one plastic binding. Heating and forming it was easy.
Gluing was a mess.
I used Weldon #16.
What works better?


I don't know about the bindings made of plastics like ABS, but if you ever consider using tortoise celluloid binding, it can be glued on without any of the Weldon type glues. Tortoise celluloid binding is a bit of a special case of plastic binding because of the transparent/translucent patches in it. You need to have a veneer layer behind it that is the full height of the binding to provide uniform color to the transparent patches. Otherwise you would be able to see the transition from the lower edge of the top or back purfling to the wood of the side through the tortoise binding in places. At least for the lighter colored tortoise binding I've used.

I glue all four pieces of the binding to a sheet of white veneer which serves as a white line in the purfling scheme when seen from the top or bottom of the guitar. I wipe one side of the full length of a binding piece with acetone using a Q-tip and then apply and spread LMI glue on top of that. (I learned that trick from a post on this forum.) That piece is then placed on the veneer and the same done for the other three pieces. I clamp them to the bench top on wax paper under a board and then cut them out of the sheet using a razor blade after the glue is dry.

With the binding backed by the veneer layer, you don't have to use Duco or Weldon or any of those similar cements for plastic to glue the binding into the channel. LMI glue (or similar) works great. The binding is very flexible so no pre-bending is needed.

Image
Author:  Mike OMelia [ Mon Jun 22, 2015 10:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Plastic binding and purfling
Wood binding is a process skill. Probably a good reason you don't see it much on big name guitars (without big prices). My experience is that it is very hard to explain or standardize. Keep it thin. Shape it well. Don't rush the tape up. Have lots of cauls and clamps available. Tune with a heat pipe. Seriously, how do you write a step by step recipe for this? Same with bevels, as I have learned. Do it enough times and it will reveal itself. Thin seems to be key.

I used to be a fiber fan until I saw how it would edge blush. Widen. This can be minimized with proper scraping. But once widened, its hard to reverse.
Author:  Doug Balzer [ Tue Jun 23, 2015 2:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Plastic binding and purfling
Wood binding became much easier when I reduced thickness to 0.060". Even ebony is no longer a battle. Careful dry-fitting is still essential.
Author:  dzsmith [ Tue Jun 23, 2015 5:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Plastic binding and purfling
I did my first Mesquite binding.
I tried many bending techniques. What worked for me was to wipe the binding with a wet rag, lay the wet rag on the hot pipe, use a thin piece of tin as a backer, and bend.
I planed and sanded the binding down to 0.07" thick. This was a lot of work.
I discovered the binding needs to be completely dry before gluing with Titebond.
One thing I will do in the future is to clean up the binding channel before gluing.
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