Mike, I have nothing to offer your actual question / problem. I only need to say that I love the way you identify guitar shapes as "cutaways and regulars." That's awesome!! So far I've only built "regulars."
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| I am almost there https://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=45898 |
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| Author: | Mike OMelia [ Tue Jun 16, 2015 9:36 pm ] |
| Post subject: | I am almost there |
I have worked out my technique for routing the neck dovetail. I am doing this for OLF SJ models. Cutaways and regulars. I'm working the normal body now. Question is whether I should flatten the side at the joint or sand relief into the tenon area to deal with rounded shape. |
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| Author: | George L [ Wed Jun 17, 2015 9:37 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: I am almost there |
I prefer to flatten the rims. For me, the less I have to mess with the neck itself the better. |
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| Author: | Mike OMelia [ Wed Jun 17, 2015 3:48 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: I am almost there |
Crud. It has occurred to me that if I do not flatten, then the dovetail joint may not be tight enough if I go the "relief" rout (I would have to go down deeper in the joint, but my current setup produces almost a level neck tp top). Shims? |
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| Author: | SteveSmith [ Wed Jun 17, 2015 8:13 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: I am almost there |
I prefer to leave the sides rounded and then relieve the heel so there is only about a 1/8" of material bearing on the surface that needs to be flossed. I'm no dovetail expert (and surely one of ours will jump in here) but when they are loose I use a shim of the same type of wood and some HHG. |
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| Author: | George L [ Wed Jun 17, 2015 8:27 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: I am almost there |
I should clarify that I've never made an OLF SJ model. I was commenting in general terms. No matter the shape, like Steve, I leave very little edge to be flossed when mating the surfaces. |
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| Author: | Mike OMelia [ Wed Jun 17, 2015 8:41 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: I am almost there |
I think I'm gonna punt on the dovetail. I just can't seem to gain enough confidence in what I'm doing. I'm just gonna do a M&T. Way less estimating and calculating. If I get it wrong, I'm toast. Now, questions are, cross dowel or threaded insert? I've had a threaded insert fail, so I'm leaning towards cross dowel (barrel nut). Also, where does one source those brass bolts with wide heads and Allen insets? |
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| Author: | RustySP [ Fri Jun 19, 2015 4:56 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: I am almost there |
Lowe's and HD has them, so does McFeely's online. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk |
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| Author: | Mike OMelia [ Sat Jun 20, 2015 8:34 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: I am almost there |
I found them at Lowes. 1/4 by 20 threads. Brass inserts (keyed). 40 mm connector bolts. |
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| Author: | phil [ Sat Jun 20, 2015 10:29 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: I am almost there |
Mike, I have nothing to offer your actual question / problem. I only need to say that I love the way you identify guitar shapes as "cutaways and regulars." That's awesome!! So far I've only built "regulars."
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| Author: | Mike OMelia [ Sat Jun 20, 2015 6:31 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: I am almost there |
Well, what do you call them? :p |
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| Author: | Mike OMelia [ Sat Jun 20, 2015 9:02 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: I am almost there |
Ok, so I worked up another sample neck and block, used the 14 Fret M&T templates. I did use a piece of sacrificial wood at the top of the block to minimize tear out, that worked great. 1/2" spiral bit. But look at the size of the mortise (length is 3.4"). My actual heel will cover that, but when I measured how that would be on the body, it would go to the blue tape line. And, properly set, there would be about a 1/4" gap between tenon and bottom of mortise. Seems that the mortise is just too long. I can adjust up with the edge vise. But the guide line will be north of the top. Is that advisable? Normal? Mike |
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| Author: | Mike OMelia [ Sun Jun 21, 2015 10:45 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: I am almost there |
Well.... I don't have much choice on tenon size, and I measure 0.2" based on full seating in joint (last picture), so I'm gonna move template north by 0.2". |
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| Author: | Mike OMelia [ Sun Jun 21, 2015 7:41 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: I am almost there |
It worked. Have to say, next to cutting the binding channels, that was about the scariest thing I have done yet. The neck jig worked as advertised. But, I still wish the templates allowed for more outside edge cutting. Guess I will pony up some money and ask for it. I still don't understand why the mortise is 0.2" longer than it needs to be. The joint is simple. I must be missing something here. |
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| Author: | Mike OMelia [ Sun Jun 21, 2015 8:27 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: I am almost there |
Couple of pictures showing the progress. Kind of a big deal to me as I feel like I'm taking on new challenges. If you look closely in the background, you will see the African Blackwood bevels for this project. |
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| Author: | Mike OMelia [ Sun Jun 21, 2015 8:55 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: I am almost there |
Yup, there is a Southpaw in the mix. That one has been a challenge. I have had to constantly remind myself. |
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| Author: | Mike OMelia [ Mon Jun 22, 2015 9:55 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: I am almost there |
I'm running a risk here. I'm not being critical. I just need to know if anybody has a work around for cutaways. The edge vise I have will not work on a cutaway. I've got to get these cut, any help would be appreciated. I'm considering building a caul that will fit into the cutaway, secured to body with double sided tape and clamps. Why is this so hard? |
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| Author: | Mike OMelia [ Tue Jun 23, 2015 7:45 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: I am almost there |
I'm looking for ideas on how to non-destructively modify this edge vise so it can be used on cut always. Thanks in advance Mike |
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| Author: | Glenn_Aycock [ Tue Jun 23, 2015 10:02 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: I am almost there |
Two ideas: 1) EASY - run a thin but rigid caul on either side of the body (under the clamp) to extend the cutaway. Add stiffeners between the cauls to keep them from collapsing. Use if clamp can open wide enough. 2) HARDER - build another clamping apparatus for the inside of cutaway, which clamps into the void of the original clamp.  Sorry about the crude drawings - it's late. |
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| Author: | Mike OMelia [ Wed Jun 24, 2015 6:51 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: I am almost there |
Thanks. Have you tried that design? One of the issues is vibration due to cutting torques. I built a caul and secured with carpet tape. External clamps are difficult, if not in the way of the neck jig. A shim across the front and back add extra hold forces on dogs and caul. I really holds tight, but I'm not sure it will tolerate cutting torques. And, I have to probably make 5 of these. |
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| Author: | Mike OMelia [ Wed Jun 24, 2015 6:56 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: I am almost there |
When u stop and think about those ideas, the two bad things are potential movement, and non level orientation of edge vise. The latter will result in a mortise that is slightly narrower. Vertical alignment is not an issue. So if hold forces are good, it should work. |
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| Author: | Mike OMelia [ Wed Jun 24, 2015 7:13 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: I am almost there |
Here are some other angles on it. The drawing is the proposed new edge vise design by LuthierTools. My engineer's eye sees a problem with it in that the angled ledge won't register (except at the midpoint) with a curved surface. Does anyone see it different? |
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| Author: | Trevor Gore [ Wed Jun 24, 2015 7:47 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: I am almost there |
Mike O'Melia wrote: Does anyone see it different? Yep. Upside down. The southern hemisphere solution.  Attachment: Table Router Fixture.jpg Attachment: Mortise on Cutaway.jpg
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| Author: | James Orr [ Wed Jun 24, 2015 12:46 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: I am almost there |
Nothing relevant to add, but that looks like it's going to be a beautiful guitar, Mike. |
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| Author: | Mike OMelia [ Wed Jun 24, 2015 3:37 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: I am almost there |
Thank you! I'm thinking it is going to be weeks before I get the new jig, so I *MIGHT* try the setup I showed above unless someone talks me off the ledge. Mike |
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| Author: | Mike OMelia [ Thu Jun 25, 2015 10:01 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: I am almost there |
I went ahead and tried the cut. Went fine. I added a transverse clamp to the caul to make sure nothing could move. Went pretty good. |
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