Official Luthiers Forum! :: View topic - Fret end dressing on bound board

I like to hang the tang over the binding and just file as normal. That way the bound area still acts as the fretboard and you get to use the full width. Personally I like unbound where you can see the metal fret tangs filed flush to the fretboard. It's a sort of functional design with a practical appearance. I've always liked design that exposes itself like the trusses on a bridge for example. When some one looks at the bridge they can actually learn about bridge building because it's all right there in front of them. Plus the little tangs help as fret markers too

I use a little tool I made from a tool called a sheet metal nipper? Something like that, it cuts the tang off nice and flush and as deep as you need for the binding. No filing required. For me it takes longer to do a bound FB then an unbound. With unbound I just cut the frets a bit longer then required, hammer and glue them in, then flush cut nip and file.

Well,
I bought a SM fret tang nipper.
Not a single cut of the nipper left the tang flush with the bottom of the fret.
I had to file them all flush.

Dan

... Back on topic - bound boards are really not much more difficult than unbound boards and very nearly every guitar that I ever built was either bound or faux bound CNC. There are advantages to treating any board like it's bound too even if it originally was not. ...

dzsmith wrote:

Well,
I bought a SM fret tang nipper.
Not a single cut of the nipper left the tang flush with the bottom of the fret.
I had to file them all flush.

Dan

Is the nipper you bought a new one? I ask because I was looking at the product description on the SM web site and noticed that the one being sold now is different from the one I bought two years ago. The one I have has always cut the tang off completely. I've never had to file the underside of an overhang after nipping the tang. I notice they have changed the shape of the channel that the fret sits in. On the old one on the left below, the side of the channel way from the cutter block is angled which would force the fret tight against the other side of the channel that lines up with the cutting surface thereby keeping the full height of the tang under the cutter. On the current version on the right below, the channel walls are vertical on both sides. It seems to me that if the crown height of the fret is less than the width of the channel in the new nipper then the fret would have some wiggle room in the slot and if the crown was up against the wall opposite the cutter block, then the full height of the tang would not be under the cutter and some of it would be left behind on the underside of the fret.

I can't see your pic, but the new versh does look diff. I have the older one and it works great. Very little, if any, filing needed. Does not work well on small wire though.

pat macaluso wrote:

I can't see your pic, but the new versh does look diff. I have the older one and it works great. Very little, if any, filing needed. Does not work well on small wire though.

I reinserted the photo in my post above just now and I can see it. Is it visible for you now?

I'll do some practice runs before the next one.
Dan

Author:	dzsmith [ Sun May 10, 2015 9:08 pm ]
Post subject:	Fret end dressing on bound board
Hi guys, I'm doing my first bound board and I'm wondering about dressing the fret ends. Should I just put the frets in and dress them like I would on an unbound board? Since there's no tang at the ends, it seems like I could dress the ends shy of the board edge? Should I wick CA under the fret ends? Just trying to plan ahead. Thanks a bunch, Dan

Author:	DennisK [ Sun May 10, 2015 11:14 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Fret end dressing on bound board
As usual, lots of ways to do it... I like to make the frets just a touch narrower than the board and do spherical ends, which I shape and polish before installing them. I don't use CA, but you certainly can if it makes you more comfortable. The ends are easily bent, so if you install the frets over-width and file them flush like normal, then CA would definitely be a good idea. But still be careful. CA is weak against shear stress, so a file snagging on a rough cut end could easily bend it anyway. You can also file downward instead of sideways to avoid bending them, but then you have to do each fret individually, and at that point you might as well grind to length before installing them like I do. Make sure the underside of the tang-less portion is fully flat, no tang remaining. Otherwise it will have to be pounded hard enough to dent into the binding, and may still have just a tiny bit of gap to snag your nails on if plucking over the board. Cut a groove into a piece of wood and use it as a cradle to hold the fret while you file the underside of the tang with a fine flat needle file. Also, be careful if you hammer them in, because if you hit the end too hard it will bend and dent into the binding. Mainly a problem with softer binding woods like koa. It's ok to hit the middle hard, just be very gentle when you're hitting past the tang end point. Bound boards are definitely more work, but so much more elegant

Author:	Hesh [ Mon May 11, 2015 5:27 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Fret end dressing on bound board
Yep lots of ways to do it and Dennis's tip about filing away any tang nub from the underside of the crown over the binding for better seating is always a good idea too. We press frets and prefer it in most cases. By imparting a slightly tighter radius to the wire than the fret board radius it's a big help in keeping the ends down. We file the ends doing the entire length of the board with a 3 - 4" shop-made, well worn file and since the file is not very aggressive catching and bending an end does not happen for us. Use a more aggressive file and it very well might as Dennis said. Most of all though besides removing some tang and filing the nub bound boards are really no different and very little extra work. What I like about squaring up all of the ends at once is they all align nicely when sighting down the edge of the board and you don't have fleeting memories of the orthodontist.... If hammering avoid the inclination to try to further seat the unsupported fret ends by using that one last tonk of the hammer. This creates a slightly decreasing fret crown in height and encourages the string to slip off the fret end.... not good. Also avoid the radical bevel that we see on f*ctory instruments. This bevel greatly reduces fret top surface area playing real estate and can be bothersome for some players, specifically pro players. This notion of the radical bevel at the ends was just like the use of slotted pins - a cheap, fast effort to avoid needing skilled labor in the construction of the instrument. We Loofiers..... can do better and by definition should always be doing the details right. One last suggestion if I may please. When nipping off the fret ends as close to flush as you can with the board orient the jaws of the nippers horizontally where you can. You can't always do this over the extension over the body but you can for the rest of the frets. Why? Because orienting the nipper jaws vertically tends to pinch the fret crown edges resulting in the dreaded "fret fangs...." Fret fangs look like little fangs and need to be filed away. Orienting the nippers horizontally avoids creating the fangs in the fist place and makes end shaping a bit quicker and easier.

Author:	dzsmith [ Mon May 11, 2015 9:31 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Fret end dressing on bound board
Thanks Dennis and Hesh! I now have a better understanding of how to do it. I bought a new LMI fret saw and I am using SM frets, so I'm going to do a few practice runs first to get a feel for the process. Dan

Author:	Hesh [ Tue May 12, 2015 6:53 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Fret end dressing on bound board
You are very welcome Dan! By the way every time I read your signature line I hear that aweful tune going through my head for half a day..... That has to be one of the most annoying tunes every excreted...... Back on topic - bound boards are really not much more difficult than unbound boards and very nearly every guitar that I ever built was either bound or faux bound CNC. There are advantages to treating any board like it's bound too even if it originally was not. Lots of refrets that we do may not have a bond board but the fret ends have been nicely filled and finished over. So when I remove... the frets I replace them with frets with under cut tangs so as to not disturb the filling and finish. Easy peezy and it preserves that new guitar f*ctory look (and smell....)

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Author:	dzsmith [ Tue May 12, 2015 8:03 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Fret end dressing on bound board
Thanks Hesh! I hope you like my new signature. Dan

Author:	Hesh [ Tue May 12, 2015 8:44 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Fret end dressing on bound board
Yeah that's better and reminds me of the commercial with the baby dancing to that tune!

Author:	jfmckenna [ Tue May 12, 2015 9:59 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Fret end dressing on bound board
I like to hang the tang over the binding and just file as normal. That way the bound area still acts as the fretboard and you get to use the full width. Personally I like unbound where you can see the metal fret tangs filed flush to the fretboard. It's a sort of functional design with a practical appearance. I've always liked design that exposes itself like the trusses on a bridge for example. When some one looks at the bridge they can actually learn about bridge building because it's all right there in front of them. Plus the little tangs help as fret markers too I use a little tool I made from a tool called a sheet metal nipper? Something like that, it cuts the tang off nice and flush and as deep as you need for the binding. No filing required. For me it takes longer to do a bound FB then an unbound. With unbound I just cut the frets a bit longer then required, hammer and glue them in, then flush cut nip and file.

Author:	dzsmith [ Tue May 12, 2015 8:34 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Fret end dressing on bound board
jfmckenna wrote: I like to hang the tang over the binding and just file as normal. That way the bound area still acts as the fretboard and you get to use the full width. Personally I like unbound where you can see the metal fret tangs filed flush to the fretboard. It's a sort of functional design with a practical appearance. I've always liked design that exposes itself like the trusses on a bridge for example. When some one looks at the bridge they can actually learn about bridge building because it's all right there in front of them. Plus the little tangs help as fret markers too I use a little tool I made from a tool called a sheet metal nipper? Something like that, it cuts the tang off nice and flush and as deep as you need for the binding. No filing required. For me it takes longer to do a bound FB then an unbound. With unbound I just cut the frets a bit longer then required, hammer and glue them in, then flush cut nip and file. I may buy a fret tang nipper if I like the bound board. For now, I'll be filing them by hand or using a dremel. Thanks, Dan

Author:	dzsmith [ Mon Jun 08, 2015 9:31 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Fret end dressing on bound board
Well, I bought a SM fret tang nipper. Not a single cut of the nipper left the tang flush with the bottom of the fret. I had to file them all flush. I hammered the frets in and every fret end was above the binding edge. I had to clamp each fret end and wick in CA. I almost pulled all of the frets out but decided it would be easier to clean up the CA on the board rather than fix chips. I guess I'd have better luck pressing the frets in, but I can't see spending the money for a caul and press. Not sure if I did anything wrong, but I'm not willing to risk marring another fretboard with CA. I'm not asking for advice, but just want to record my experience for reference. Dan

Author:	David Collins [ Mon Jun 08, 2015 10:05 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Fret end dressing on bound board
Unfortunately that's how tang nippers work - no, they won't always trim perfectly flush (or at least not unless you have a different set ground custom for each wire size). Not a waste of money in my opinion at all, as makes for quick work of sizing the tang to the slot. Yes, you still have to clean up the underside with a few quick file strokes on most frets, but that's how it works. I can see being disappointed if it was an investment for one guitar, in which case it could make more sense to do it all with a file. Do enough bound boards though, and their value becomes much more appreciated. Now that you've been through it though, start taking a closer look at the feet ends on other bound boards you see - you might me surprised how few people bother filing off that last bit of tang, and how rarely it is ever noticed until you've been trained to look for it. It all gets quicker and easier though the more you do it. I actually do get pretty darn close to perfect flush removal with my StewMac tang nippers, though I didn't always. The tool never changed, but my results did as I began to develop a better feel for pressures and positions of the wire vs tool. Didn't practice anything consciously, just noticed the tangs coming off cleaner the more is used them.

Author:	J De Rocher [ Tue Jun 09, 2015 1:33 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Fret end dressing on bound board
dzsmith wrote: Well, I bought a SM fret tang nipper. Not a single cut of the nipper left the tang flush with the bottom of the fret. I had to file them all flush. Dan Is the nipper you bought a new one? I ask because I was looking at the product description on the SM web site and noticed that the one being sold now is different from the one I bought two years ago. The one I have has always cut the tang off completely. I've never had to file the underside of an overhang after nipping the tang. I notice they have changed the shape of the channel that the fret sits in. On the old one on the left below, the side of the channel way from the cutter block is angled which would force the fret tight against the other side of the channel that lines up with the cutting surface thereby keeping the full height of the tang under the cutter. On the current version on the right below, the channel walls are vertical on both sides. It seems to me that if the crown height of the fret is less than the width of the channel in the new nipper then the fret would have some wiggle room in the slot and if the crown was up against the wall opposite the cutter block, then the full height of the tang would not be under the cutter and some of it would be left behind on the underside of the fret.

Author:	jfmckenna [ Tue Jun 09, 2015 7:13 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Fret end dressing on bound board
I think we may be talking about two different tools. One is a flush cut end cutter and the other, the one I was talking about, is a fret tang nibbler. The former is for cutting off the fret ends that over hang the fretboard after hammering them in flush to the fret board. The other one is for cutting just the tang part of the fret where wire extends over the binding. So for bound fretboards you need both tools. First the nibbler to clear the way for the binding and then the flush cut to get the end. As David pointed out you always need to file the ends after flush cutting you should not however need to file after nibbling the tang.

Author:	kencierp [ Tue Jun 09, 2015 7:31 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Fret end dressing on bound board
All Parts has a monster version designed to nip tangs off SS wire gets good reviews but cost $110

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Author:	johnparchem [ Tue Jun 09, 2015 10:00 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Fret end dressing on bound board
Hesh wrote: ... Back on topic - bound boards are really not much more difficult than unbound boards and very nearly every guitar that I ever built was either bound or faux bound CNC. There are advantages to treating any board like it's bound too even if it originally was not. ... Aha!, I do both bound and unbound, but when dressing unbound I have hated sanding the tang flat. You have the "obvious solution" that I never thought of: even when originally fretting, undercut and then fill. I would bet on an ebony fret board an unbounded would look the same as an ebony bound fret board.

Author:	Pmaj7 [ Tue Jun 09, 2015 10:03 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Fret end dressing on bound board
J De Rocher wrote: dzsmith wrote: Well, I bought a SM fret tang nipper. Not a single cut of the nipper left the tang flush with the bottom of the fret. I had to file them all flush. Dan Is the nipper you bought a new one? I ask because I was looking at the product description on the SM web site and noticed that the one being sold now is different from the one I bought two years ago. The one I have has always cut the tang off completely. I've never had to file the underside of an overhang after nipping the tang. I notice they have changed the shape of the channel that the fret sits in. On the old one on the left below, the side of the channel way from the cutter block is angled which would force the fret tight against the other side of the channel that lines up with the cutting surface thereby keeping the full height of the tang under the cutter. On the current version on the right below, the channel walls are vertical on both sides. It seems to me that if the crown height of the fret is less than the width of the channel in the new nipper then the fret would have some wiggle room in the slot and if the crown was up against the wall opposite the cutter block, then the full height of the tang would not be under the cutter and some of it would be left behind on the underside of the fret. I can't see your pic, but the new versh does look diff. I have the older one and it works great. Very little, if any, filing needed. Does not work well on small wire though.

Author:	dzsmith [ Tue Jun 09, 2015 10:29 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Fret end dressing on bound board
I think my problem is due to cutting away too much of the tang. Whining about it won't fix anything, I'll do some practice runs before the next one. Dan

Author:	J De Rocher [ Tue Jun 09, 2015 11:47 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Fret end dressing on bound board
pat macaluso wrote: I can't see your pic, but the new versh does look diff. I have the older one and it works great. Very little, if any, filing needed. Does not work well on small wire though. I reinserted the photo in my post above just now and I can see it. Is it visible for you now?

Author:	dzsmith [ Tue Jun 09, 2015 12:37 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Fret end dressing on bound board
J De Rocher wrote: pat macaluso wrote: I can't see your pic, but the new versh does look diff. I have the older one and it works great. Very little, if any, filing needed. Does not work well on small wire though. I reinserted the photo in my post above just now and I can see it. Is it visible for you now? Yep, It did seem odd that the wire did not seat properly in my cutter. I had to move it around for the best cut.