Official Luthiers Forum!
https://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/

Fretwire tang sizes.
https://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=45383		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  Colin North [ Thu Mar 19, 2015 1:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Fretwire tang sizes.
OK, so Crown heights and width varying I can follow, I can see the need, but so much difference in tang and tang stud widths is quite bewildering. What's the story here?
I have also seen complaints on the forums (including the OLF) that the quoted tang widths and actual tang widths can be quite different.
Basically, I originally used SM # 0152 (if it's good enough for Dan, it's good enough for me), but have bought others for "stock"
Yesterday I decided to measure up the tang widths and width across the studs, as I was:-
1) Assessing a japanese hardwood saw (kerf = 0.66 mm/(0.026") for possible use as a manual fret slotting saw.
2) hoping to use a Proxxon table saw for fret slotting, and am more or less limited to 0.56 mm/0.022" fret slots as the set on the teeth seems to be unalterable (I tried, they are so hard that they break really easily)
This is what I came up with (it can be very difficult to measure tang widths due to the studding, so as many as 12/20 or more attempts were made to measure these dimensions until I got a more or less consistent reading with my digital calipers)

SM # 0152 - Tang width - 0.024"(0.61 mm) / width across studs - 0.039"(0.98 mm)
Evo FW43080 - Tang width - 0.019"(0.49 mm) / width across studs - 0.0335"(0.85 mm)
Unknown (ebay) - Tang width - 0.022"(0.56 mm) / width across studs - 0.036"(0.91 mm) (opportunity buy)
Madinter 2 mm (*) - Tang width - 0.0215"(0.54 mm) / width across studs - 0.0335"(0.85 mm) (*-Sintoms 206109 - probably my main fretwire now)
Author:  Hesh [ Thu Mar 19, 2015 2:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Fretwire tang sizes.
Colin at the end of the day, beginning too, what's most important is if the tang fits well in the slot with no unnatural acts required to seat frets.

There are a number of reasons why you are seeing lots of variance in tang sizes. Quality control, the specific brand of wire, and what someone calls a good fit are all in play here.

Before Martin started using high-technology such as the truss rod......:) the way one controlled the shape of a Martin neck or relief was by using perhaps a plethora of different tang sizes. Thicker sizes kept the neck flat or with some back bow and thinner does the reverse. Because of this the Martin size of wire alone has something like 7 - 9 tang sizes. With Martins this is called compression fretting and very much depends on differing sizes of wire to manipulate the neck.

Going back to your original question we have all of the tang sizes and do compression fretting. How the wire fits the fret slot, how much pressure in needed, etc. is also key to which wire we are going to use and where. So that original answer of what really matters here is that your wire fits well in the slots is again the answer here.

When I'm compression fretting (with string tension) I'm most interested in how things fit and feel. The same holds true with fretting a new instrument and I might try various wires to get the level of resistance that I'm looking for.

So again it's not the number(s) that really matter, it's the fit.
Author:  Colin North [ Thu Mar 19, 2015 5:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Fretwire tang sizes.
Thanks for your insight Hesh, and the fit is of course what I am looking for.
But as an amateur, I can only afford to play with my home made (thanks Mr Ford) fret tang compression and expansion tools to adjust fit as necessary, rather than carry an exhaustive range of fret wire.
Author:  jshelton [ Thu Mar 19, 2015 5:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Fretwire tang sizes.
Colin North wrote:
2) hoping to use a Proxxon table saw for fret slotting, and am more or less limited to 0.56 mm/0.022" fret slots as the set on the teeth seems to be unalterable (I tried, they are so hard that they break really easily)


You can buy jeweler's slotting saws on the internet which come in a graduated widths (.023.,024,.025, etc.) and cut fret slots with your table saw that are perfectly suited to any tang. We've found that a .028 saw blade works perfectly with a .055 tang and do simple ratios from that to adjust for different tang sizes. Slotting saws are not particularly expensive and last pretty much forever if you're only sawing fret slots. They also work great for sawing saddle and nut bone since they take a very tiny kerf.
Author:  DennisK [ Thu Mar 19, 2015 5:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Fretwire tang sizes.
I use a ,023" StewMac slotting saw, figuring that's the industry standard slot width. I also figured it would fit StewMac fretwire... wrong! Especially the uke wire. Even if you grind the barbs entirely off, the tang itself is a tight fit. But every other wire I've tried was some kind of wrong too, so I sprung for the StewMac fret barber and all my problems have been solved. Except for when I forget to size the tang before cutting all the frets to length [headinwall]
Author:  Colin North [ Thu Mar 19, 2015 6:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Fretwire tang sizes.
DennisK wrote:
I use a ,023" StewMac slotting saw, figuring that's the industry standard slot width. I also figured it would fit StewMac fretwire... wrong! Especially the uke wire. Even if you grind the barbs entirely off, the tang itself is a tight fit. But every other wire I've tried was some kind of wrong too, so I sprung for the StewMac fret barber and all my problems have been solved. Except for when I forget to size the tang before cutting all the frets to length [headinwall]

My problem exactly, went SM as a fretting system to start with and then found out the SM fretwire varies in tang width.
Author:  Colin North [ Thu Mar 19, 2015 6:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Fretwire tang sizes.
jshelton wrote:
Colin North wrote:
2) hoping to use a Proxxon table saw for fret slotting, and am more or less limited to 0.56 mm/0.022" fret slots as the set on the teeth seems to be unalterable (I tried, they are so hard that they break really easily)


You can buy jeweler's slotting saws on the internet which come in a graduated widths (.023.,024,.025, etc.) and cut fret slots with your table saw that are perfectly suited to any tang. We've found that a .028 saw blade works perfectly with a .055 tang and do simple ratios from that to adjust for different tang sizes. Slotting saws are not particularly expensive and last pretty much forever if you're only sawing fret slots. They also work great for sawing saddle and nut bone since they take a very tiny kerf.

Yessir, thank you, I did hear that and looked, but it's a bit awkard as I live in UK, and seemingly not for the Proxxon which is a 10 mm arbor. Starts to get a bit complicated.
Author:  jshelton [ Thu Mar 19, 2015 6:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Fretwire tang sizes.
Quote:
Yessir, thank you, I did hear that and looked, but it's a bit awkard as I live in UK, and seemingly not for the Proxxon which is a 10 mm arbor. Starts to get a bit complicated.

You could always go to your local machine shop and have a shim made for your table saw. I did that so I could use the slotting blades with 1" hole on my 5/8" arbor. It was not expensive by any means.
Author:  dzsmith [ Thu Mar 19, 2015 8:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Fretwire tang sizes.
Now I'm thirsty for imitation orange juice.
Author:  Colin North [ Fri Mar 20, 2015 8:59 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Fretwire tang sizes.
dzsmith wrote:
Now I'm thirsty for imitation orange juice.

And I stopped smoking real, and imitation, tobacco or any substitutes thereof.
Wanna make something of it, eh? pfft
Author:  Imbler [ Fri Mar 20, 2015 11:06 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Fretwire tang sizes.
Since I started using the Fret Barber, I haven't even needed to level the frets. I do a really good level on the board first, then check my work with a fret rocker as I go. With a snug but not tight fit, I'm not hammering the frets, but rather tapping them in so I don't dent the frets. I then check the frets with a surfaced bar when I'm done. I've read that some people who press the frets in are also able to omit the leveling step.
Mike


DennisK wrote:
I use a ,023" StewMac slotting saw, figuring that's the industry standard slot width. I also figured it would fit StewMac fretwire... wrong! Especially the uke wire. Even if you grind the barbs entirely off, the tang itself is a tight fit. But every other wire I've tried was some kind of wrong too, so I sprung for the StewMac fret barber and all my problems have been solved. Except for when I forget to size the tang before cutting all the frets to length [headinwall]
Author:  Burton LeGeyt [ Fri Mar 20, 2015 12:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Fretwire tang sizes.
I too like the jewelers saws. I had some larger ones ground down and I made a stabilizer to use them on my 5/8 arbor saw.

Attachment:
fret saws.jpg


I have been removing most of the barbs and trying to match the tang dimension as exactly as I can in the slot. Trying to mimic bar frets in a way. I'm doing it to add stability to the neck, and resistance to deformation. In my mind it is much more solid than trusting the wood not to compress into the barbs. Why wouldn't it do that?

I've only had this setup working for the last few guitars but it is great. I've been cutting the slots at .02-.021 depending on the fretwire (mostly using EVO) and hammering in off the neck.

It is hard to accurately measure most tang thicknesses. The way the barbs are set on most wire make a straight across measurement difficult. Some of them are slightly tapered top to bottom as well.
Author:  jshelton [ Sat Mar 21, 2015 1:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Fretwire tang sizes.
That looks very similar to my arrangement. We've been using the StewMac straight frets which have a recommendation of .023" for the slot regardless of tang size. This make no sense to me. I found through trial and error that .028" is pretty much perfect for a tang of .055" so used a simple ratio to come up with appropriate saw blade width for other tang sizes.
Author:  murrmac [ Sat Mar 21, 2015 4:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Fretwire tang sizes.
jshelton wrote:
I found through trial and error that .028" is pretty much perfect for a tang of .055" so used a simple ratio to come up with appropriate saw blade width for other tang sizes.


I'm confused ... what does the [ .055" ] refer to ... not the tang width, surely ?
Author:  jshelton [ Sat Mar 21, 2015 6:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Fretwire tang sizes.
murrmac wrote:
jshelton wrote:
I found through trial and error that .028" is pretty much perfect for a tang of .055" so used a simple ratio to come up with appropriate saw blade width for other tang sizes.


I'm confused ... what does the [ .055" ] refer to ... not the tang width, surely ?

http://www.stewmac.com/Luthier_Tools/To ... twire.html
Author:  DennisK [ Sat Mar 21, 2015 7:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Fretwire tang sizes.
jshelton wrote:
murrmac wrote:
jshelton wrote:
I found through trial and error that .028" is pretty much perfect for a tang of .055" so used a simple ratio to come up with appropriate saw blade width for other tang sizes.


I'm confused ... what does the [ .055" ] refer to ... not the tang width, surely ?

http://www.stewmac.com/Luthier_Tools/To ... twire.html

That's the tang height, which has nothing to do with slot width. StewMac doesn't seem to provide stats on the tang width and barb size... just says it fits a .023" slot. Which it doesn't. At least not for me. I always bind my fingerboards though, which makes fretting tougher since the slots can't flex open.
Author:  Pmaj7 [ Sat Mar 21, 2015 10:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Fretwire tang sizes.
DennisK wrote:
I always bind my fingerboards though, which makes fretting tougher since the slots can't flex open.

I don't think this is true. Maybe only from one or two millimeters away.

I have always used a .023 kerf slot with a variety of fret wires. It never seems to want to go in there very easily. (especially over the body [ which I remember being a "why do I even try to build guitars"] moment) So I have arrived at hammering them in off the neck. Maybe I should look into a bigger kerf!
Author:  Hesh [ Sun Mar 22, 2015 9:13 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Fretwire tang sizes.
Seems to be a lot more struggling with getting frets in then I think should be the case. A properly sized fret slot and matching fret should press in easily or "tap" in with minimal force. If you guys are pounding them in the slots are too tight or.... you are not using a rigid back stop when tapping in frets. I once had my shop in an unused condo bedroom with white carpet.... Other then keeping it clean, which was not easy... the carpet under my bench legs made driving frets home difficult because it gave and was not a rigid back stop. Pressing frets eliminated this issue and these days I press and tap... which ever is easier for that spot on that job.

A couple of other things that might be helpful to OLF fretters:

Be sure the depth of the slots is sufficient for the targeted wire. They won't go in either if the slots are too shallow.... Today's larger wire is also deeper, make a note of it.

Pat's .023 kerf should be fine and that's what I use.

Not all fret wire is created equally. We like Jescar and IIRC they now will sell off their web sight small builder quantities so you guys don't have to spend over a grand on fret wire to get the finest wire available IME. I don't know what wire LMI and SM use but it would be nice to know.

Know and understand in advance that hammering/taping frets can be more problematic than pressing frets for inexperienced fret tappers. Basically the barbs on the fret tang will be gripping the inside of the slot when driven home. But when tapping/hammering there is a possibility of springing the fret, distorting it's radius with the hammering process that can lift an embedded barb back up. Try to continue to seat this fret in exactly the same place and it gets worse as the inside of the fret slot is damaged by the trauma of your hammering. When this happens pitch the fret, start with a new one, and place the fret so that the barbs are not were they were with the last fret. Clean the slot too of any debris.

We buy big-arse rolls of Jescar wire and as such it's already radiused and the radius off the roll seems to be perfect most of the time. For the radius I want to see slightly tighter a radius than the board radius. This helps keep the ends down.

If undercutting the tang for a bound board look closely at the under cut. It's often the case that the tool curls the end of the cut slightly making the end difficult to fit in the slot. After every under cut tang I look at it and straighten it with pliers if necessary before pressing it home. Also when under cutting the tang be sure to file the stub of the cut tang from the bottom of the fret before seating it. This helps it seat better and more completely.

Hope something here helps.
Author:  jshelton [ Sun Mar 22, 2015 9:29 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Fretwire tang sizes.
[quote]That's the tang height, which has nothing to do with slot width. StewMac doesn't seem to provide stats on the tang width and barb size... just says it fits a .023" slot. Which it doesn't. At least not for me. I always bind my fingerboards though, which makes fretting tougher since the slots can't flex open.[quote/]
You're right, I misread it but what I said about the .028" slotting saw is still true. I've tried to measure the tang sizes with a micrometer and had no luck so it's just trial and error to find the right size slotting saw. I have several sizes and lots of scrap ebony.
Page 1 of 1 All times are UTC - 5 hours
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
http://www.phpbb.com/