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| Zero fret https://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=45367 |
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| Author: | JSDenvir [ Tue Mar 17, 2015 1:26 am ] |
| Post subject: | Zero fret |
I have a potential customer asking for a zero fret. I've never played one, let alone built one. Any thoughts? Thanks Steve |
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| Author: | meddlingfool [ Tue Mar 17, 2015 2:05 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Zero fret |
It seems like a very rational concept. I've never done one either, but I see no reason not to give it a whirl. If a customer asked me for one I would totally do it. Sent a PM... |
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| Author: | Colin North [ Tue Mar 17, 2015 3:43 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Zero fret |
My first thoughts are - Fret the board except the zero fret and level/crown/dress first. Leave 3/4" or so north of the zero fret slot until it's fret wire is in (so the walls of the slot are well supported) then trim to fit the nut/spacer thingy. |
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| Author: | H3ytm@n [ Tue Mar 17, 2015 5:31 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Zero fret |
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| Author: | DennisK [ Tue Mar 17, 2015 6:30 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Zero fret |
I don't like them. There's a fundamental difference between fretted notes and open strings, which is that the string is stretched to a higher pitch due to being held down, and the amount of pitch change depends on the gauge of each string. The standard procedure of cutting a zero fret slot all the way through the board cleverly scoots the nut forward by half a slot width (about .011"), which helps to counteract it a little. Full nut compensation is ideal. That said, if the player uses a capo more often than not, then a zero fret might be fine, because a capo always effectively creates a zero fret. And even though the capo does stretch the strings once already, fretting a note afterward creates another stretch point so you still have the fundamental difference between open and fretted notes, and thus it will never be perfect. So by using a zero fret on the open strings, your bridge compensation might end up being more ideal for capoed playing than it would if you did nut compensation. Which reminds me, there's a thread I've been meaning to create for a long time... and here it is: http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=45368 EDIT: Conclusion is that a compensated nut is always better, even with a capo. |
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| Author: | kencierp [ Tue Mar 17, 2015 6:50 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Zero fret |
Do not like the look of them -- without question set-up is easier -- personally I'd never be able to "hear" any difference. |
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| Author: | Chris Pile [ Tue Mar 17, 2015 8:49 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Zero fret |
I would like to build with them on a regular basis, but around here most folks associate them with cheap foreign guitars. Personally, I think they are a great idea! |
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| Author: | murrmac [ Tue Mar 17, 2015 9:16 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Zero fret |
I don't like the conventional zero fret ... the gap between the nut and the sero fret looks hideous IMO. That said, I could be tempted to install a Zeroglide Fret, which overcomes most of the aesthetic objections. |
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| Author: | Bryan Bear [ Tue Mar 17, 2015 10:08 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Zero fret |
Don't level and crown before you put in the zero fret, level them all together. The point of the zero fret is to have it in the same plane as the rest of the frets keeping "nut" action perfect. You need to make sure you have enough meet behind the zero fret to keep from splitting it out when you press the fret in but his doesn't have to be a huge amount. Don't' tell Hesh, but I fret the board before I attach it to the neck so for me I just leave it extra long and trim it after I fret. Remember also that if you want to move the "nut" position forward for compensation, the same applies to the zero fret (but it will technically be 1/2 the tang further back because it is a slot instead of butting the nut up to a cut). One thing I noticed when I first played on a zero fret is that sometimes it tricks your mind into thinking it is the first fret. Even though there is only a tiny space between the string retainer and the zero fret, the fact that it was a fret would make my brain count it. I would go to strum a g chord (or other open chord) and it would sound terrible. Then I would notice I was fretting one fret too low. It only took a little bit to get used to that but it was worth mentioning. |
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| Author: | Bryan Bear [ Tue Mar 17, 2015 10:25 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Zero fret |
Dennis, I don't think your capo example applies. A zero fret is not exactly like fretting a note inasmuch as there is not additional stretch from holding the string down. You are not pressing it down behind the fret in addition to the tension provided by tuning. In this sense, it is just like the nut. The tuned note is what provides the stretch. You do have the stretch on the fretted notes in open chord but the zero fret height being as low as possible keeps this to a minimum. Moving the nut/zero fret helps too. At some point you have to accept the fact that you are playing a guitar and it will never be perfect. I personally can't hear a difference intonation from a zero fret and a well slotted nut. I doubt that anyone could in a blind test. |
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| Author: | meddlingfool [ Tue Mar 17, 2015 10:45 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Zero fret |
I am -totally- telling Hesh! |
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| Author: | Bryan Bear [ Tue Mar 17, 2015 10:50 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Zero fret |
meddlingfool wrote: I am -totally- telling Hesh! Oh man! Now he's going to put me on ignore. What if I need to tell him something? |
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| Author: | Alex Kleon [ Tue Mar 17, 2015 10:59 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Zero fret |
Bryan Bear wrote: meddlingfool wrote: I am -totally- telling Hesh! Oh man! Now he's going to put me on ignore. What if I need to tell him something? Third party communication. Maybe fourth.  Alex |
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| Author: | Bryan Bear [ Tue Mar 17, 2015 11:15 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Zero fret |
I can't ask anyone to stick their neck out like that for me. Maybe I should repent. |
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| Author: | Hesh [ Tue Mar 17, 2015 11:30 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Zero fret |
Bryan Bear wrote: Don't level and crown before you put in the zero fret, level them all together. The point of the zero fret is to have it in the same plane as the rest of the frets keeping "nut" action perfect. You need to make sure you have enough meet behind the zero fret to keep from splitting it out when you press the fret in but his doesn't have to be a huge amount. Don't' tell Hesh, but I fret the board before I attach it to the neck so for me I just leave it extra long and trim it after I fret. Remember also that if you want to move the "nut" position forward for compensation, the same applies to the zero fret (but it will technically be 1/2 the tang further back because it is a slot instead of butting the nut up to a cut). One thing I noticed when I first played on a zero fret is that sometimes it tricks your mind into thinking it is the first fret. Even though there is only a tiny space between the string retainer and teh zero fret, the fact that it was a fret would make my brain count it. I would go to strum a g chord (or other open chord) and it would sound terrible. Then I would notice I was fretting one fret two low. It only took a little bit to get used to that but it was worth mentioning. Oh the pain...... Oh the pain...... If this post does not make sense I'm recovering from surgery and.........highly.......... medicated........  (that even hurt to click on an emoticon.....)Bryan you are completely forgiven my friend and here's why - the rest of your post(s) regarding zero frets makes absolute sense in many respects - good going! First zero frets are associated with cheap import instruments and it's likely that they came about, for a while.... not as an answer to nut compensation, not because they look nice (I think that they look like crap personally too....), and not because it's any less complex in terms of parts count, and not because that zero fret is the magic trail to tonal nirvana. Like most if not many things in the evolution of the acoustic (or electric guitar) zero frets are likely a product of production concerns or, in other words, how do we make these pieces of crap even cheaper..... Now as builders of high-end acoustic (and electric) guitars what part of the above is attractive to you? As for me none of it.... In Bryan's second excellent post he mentions that he experiences no difference between a well cut conventional nut and a zero fret - BINGO, YOU WIN!!!!!!! (ouch.... it even hurts to think about smiling..... ).Zero frets were likely, and I say likely because I'm not ancient enough to know for sure nor was I there.... the very same concerns that we see with today's manufacturers of guitars were valid back in the day of the advent of the zero fret. Cutting nut slots properly is an art - believe it.... and very few do it well, believe this too. It requires an eye like an eagle and a steady hand with the "touch" with the nut files. It's likely that on production instruments and in my experience Luthier built instruments too that 90% or more guitars have slots, nut slots that are WAY too high.... All a zero fret does is exploit the physics of how a string bends over a fret and very slightly increases in height because the string does not kink but moreover arches over the fret crown. This means that the first true fret (not the zero fret) will have a string height very slightly higher than the first fret crown itself. The difference in height between the fret height and the string height can be so very slight that there will be no space to see with instead a slight bending of light, perhaps, and hopefully the "tink" sound of the string contacting the first fret crown when probed while also fretting between the second and third frets. With a zero fret the nut becomes more of a spacing guide and here is the biggie..... the semi-skilled labor required to cut a nut slot properly is no longer required. As such the show can go on, thousands of cheap imports can continue to come off the assembly line with no semi-skilled labor required to set the instrument up.... Less cost, less liability, less rejects, and more....... profit. Back to Bryan: Bryan's remark (that I agree with completely by the way) about not realizing any difference between a well cut nut and a zero fret also has bearing on the idea of nut compensation.... Could it be that the very idea of nut compensation is addressing a symptom and not the root causation? We all know that when we fret we are also bending the string, likely stretching it too, etc. We also know that highly medicated Hesh here... not only goes on the nut about fretting boards prior to installing on the neck because there is no opportunity to properly level the board on the guitar... Now and perhaps before you may have noticed that I tend to drive home over and over again the concept that folks should pay attention to nits such as cutting nut slots because there are benefits in them there hills..... (always wanted to say that....) A well cut nut will not stretch the string very much if at all AND justifications for nut compensation also tend to go away since the thing tends to play more in tune with well cut slots. It's also one of the very easiest, quickest, cheapest, things that any of us can learn to do with NO dependency on high-tech, others, etc. before realizing in real time the noticeable benefits. Not to mention that some of those chords that may have been difficult for you get easier to make and play too.... If one builds with a zero fret and experiences less intonation issues and wants to attribute it to the zero fret you may be correct! If you replaced the zero fret with a conventional nut well cut and also experienced less in the way of intonation issues does the zero fret still remain the solution OR..... would learning to cut nut slots properly also get one where they wish to go? Bryan's also correct that a zero fret is just another fret and leveled in conjunction with the rest of the frets (hopefully after the board is leveled on the neck.... ).This discussion reminds me of when we first heard about "double sides" and someone would invariably pop up and indicate that it's the same as laminated sides. Of course Ervin Somogyi and other Master Luthiers were not too keen to hear their innovation compared to what the producers of cheap imports do.... Admittedly double sides are done for other reasons and not cost cutting, lessening complexity, cutting production costs, etc. and instead very much part of a system to immobilize the rim and isolate the top and back. I seriously doubt that Yamaha had that in mind when they produced instruments with laminated sides. There is no magic to a zero fret nor will it produce better results than a conventional nut, well made, well cut, etc. Actually a conventional nut has some room for dealing with other issues that a zero fret does not. Try raising the height for only one string at the zero fret with a zero fret..... Lastly I know that it's not the most popular thing to say to diss Buzz Feitin, compensated nuts and the proponents who profit.... er I mean push this stuff. Nor do I care.... Properly cut conventional nut slots will go a very long way toward making some of these other issues moot AND again it's a pretty easy thing to learn about too if one cares to do so. When I met Dave Collins I took a guitar that I had built with me to his shop. After introductions and while big mouth here was likely talking Dave silently took my guitar out of the case, looked at it briefly, and then took it to his bench and clamped it in the position.... Of course I was curious and did not yet know Dave but part of me said just go along with it Hesh and see what he is going to do. As we talked and without another word about it Dave cut my nut slots and handed me back the guitar. It was a world of difference, took less than a minute to do, and made me a believer for sure. The thing played way easier, more in tune everywhere, and as mentioned some things that were difficult for me prior now were easy..... Nut slots are a very important part of the "user interface" to the instrument. It's what we touch, feel, perhaps struggle with, etc. It's also again one area where a tremendous difference can actually be personally experienced at once by the player when addressed. Know too that the difference between a very well cut nut slot and a slot that is too low requiring us to make the nut....again..... may be one swipe with the file..... And that ladies and gentlemen is why the zero fret came along I suspect, that one swipe of a file can cost a f*ctory plenty.....No zero frets for me, is it time for more medication.....
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| Author: | Bryan Bear [ Tue Mar 17, 2015 12:05 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Zero fret |
In the interest of full disclosure (I should have mentioned this before) my use of the zero fret is largely an attempt to make up for my lack of skill in this craft (hobby for me). I started off doing this stuff basically in a vacuum. I really haven't had anyone spend time with me in a workshop setting and teach me many of the skills required. In fact, I was not even a woodworker before I started. As you might guess, I had many many skills to develop; starting from zero, that it would have taken decades to fumble around and gain enough experience to actually make a guitar. I made the decision that I needed to get my hands dirty and start making stuff and build skills as I went. For me, the zero fret was a way to get through the "this guitar is a woodworking project" stage and still have workable set-up. I'm currently in the process of getting away from the zero fret, not because I am unhappy with the results but because I want to build my skills. I still have a lot to learn. . . We have people from all points on the experience spectrum here. We often discuss things that are very fine in the practical difference they make in an instrument operating at peak performance. Sometimes it is easy to lose sight of the fact that many of us on the other end of the scale are learning and produce imperfect but workable instruments and for various reasons need to use less than perfect processes. The goal should be to make each one better than the last. In order to do that, a new builder needs to build. |
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| Author: | DennisK [ Tue Mar 17, 2015 12:19 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Zero fret |
Bryan Bear wrote: Dennis, I don't think your capo example applies. A zero fret is not exactly like fretting a note inasmuch as there is not additional stretch from holding the string down. You are not pressing it down behind the fret in addition to the tension provided by tuning. Yeah, I'm all confused now about why nut compensation is ever necessary to begin with. I'm also going to go remove a bit from my previous post, because I think retuning after applying a capo is only necessary if the capo is on too tight. |
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| Author: | johnparchem [ Tue Mar 17, 2015 1:37 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Zero fret |
DennisK wrote: Bryan Bear wrote: Dennis, I don't think your capo example applies. A zero fret is not exactly like fretting a note inasmuch as there is not additional stretch from holding the string down. You are not pressing it down behind the fret in addition to the tension provided by tuning. Yeah, I'm all confused now about why nut compensation is ever necessary to begin with. I'm also going to go remove a bit from my previous post, because I think retuning after applying a capo is only necessary if the capo is on too tight. Nut compensation is to deal with the fact the typical compensation of the saddle in part is used to adjust to the increased string path from fretting, The path to the saddle is no longer a straight line. But only the fretted notes take the longer path the open string. The open string does not need this contribution of the compensation. So when you tune the open string, the 1st few fretted positions are usually sharp. Intonation is probably off when using a capo. It is just not that big of a deal. |
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| Author: | wbergman [ Tue Mar 17, 2015 1:48 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Zero fret |
http://www.guitarsalon.com/store/p4675- ... ser-i.html I have seen Hauser classical guitars with a zero fret. For example, see link above. For those who are not familiar with Hauser, he is one of the most renown of the old masters. His descendants were/are also quite respected. So, the zero fret was not a sign of a cheap guitar in the old times. I think it takes more work and more material for a factory made guitar to install a zero fret. Of course, that will not change your clients' minds. Also as noted in the ink, classical players often prefer not to play open strings when they can avoid it, because often the fretted sting has a nicer tone for nylon strings. |
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| Author: | DennisK [ Tue Mar 17, 2015 4:09 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Zero fret |
johnparchem wrote: Nut compensation is to deal with the fact the typical compensation of the saddle in part is used to adjust to the increased string path from fretting, The path to the saddle is no longer a straight line. But only the fretted notes take the longer path the open string. Yeah, that's what I thought, but the capo scenario has run me into some circular logic. Imagine you have a guitar, with nut compensation so every note is almost perfectly in tune like the charts in the Gore/Gilet book. Assume zero neck relief for now. A string has, say, 10kg of tension on it. If you fret it at the 5th fret, the tension may increase to 10.01kg. If you fret it at the 12th fret, the tension may increase to 10.02kg, because the string needs to be stretched further down than it did at the 5th fret. The difference between 5th fret tension and 12th fret tension is .01kg. Now cut out the portion of the neck between the headstock and the 5th fret, so it becomes a zero fret on a shorter scale instrument. Tune the string to 10.01kg tension, and the open note should be in tune. The distance you have to stretch the string down to get from this former 5th fret to the former 12th fret hasn't changed, so presumably the amount of tension increase will still be .01kg. You now have an instrument that plays in tune everywhere without nut compensation. What happened? If the neck did have relief, then fretting the 12th fret alone would still be 10.02kg, but if you also had a capo on the 5th fret, the tension would be increased slightly further because of the additional stretch point. But it's very small compared to the amount of stretch needed to get from open down to the 5th or 12th fret, so I don't think it invalidates the thought experiment. |
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| Author: | Michael.N. [ Tue Mar 17, 2015 5:12 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Zero fret |
DennisK wrote: Bryan Bear wrote: Dennis, I don't think your capo example applies. A zero fret is not exactly like fretting a note inasmuch as there is not additional stretch from holding the string down. You are not pressing it down behind the fret in addition to the tension provided by tuning. Yeah, I'm all confused now about why nut compensation is ever necessary to begin with. I'm also going to go remove a bit from my previous post, because I think retuning after applying a capo is only necessary if the capo is on too tight. They often are on too tight, which will send all the strings a touch sharp. Out but not in terms of intonation (although all Guitars are out!), it just means it's playing at a very slightly elevated pitch. Good Players fret the note with just enough pressure to obtain a clean note, not many Capos do that. Some Players can't either, including yours truly. So when I play a Guitar it's going to be further out - in comparison to a very good player. |
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| Author: | johnparchem [ Tue Mar 17, 2015 5:15 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Zero fret |
DennisK wrote: johnparchem wrote: Nut compensation is to deal with the fact the typical compensation of the saddle in part is used to adjust to the increased string path from fretting, The path to the saddle is no longer a straight line. But only the fretted notes take the longer path the open string. Yeah, that's what I thought, but the capo scenario has run me into some circular logic. Imagine you have a guitar, with nut compensation so every note is almost perfectly in tune like the charts in the Gore/Gilet book. If the neck did have relief, then fretting the 12th fret alone would still be 10.02kg, but if you also had a capo on the 5th fret, the tension would be increased slightly further because of the additional stretch point. But it's very small compared to the amount of stretch needed to get from open down to the 5th or 12th fret, so I don't think it invalidates the thought experiment. ... I think your starting condition is wrong, almost every note is not in tune. If you go back and look at fig 4.7 - 17 you can see that after the old 12 fret (the new 7th fret) there are incrementing errors. the notes are going flat. So the saddle compensation need to be less and then you would need a bit of nut compensation. |
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| Author: | J De Rocher [ Tue Mar 17, 2015 5:27 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Zero fret |
I don't associate zero frets with cheap guitars. It might be possible to find a gypsy jazz guitar without a zero fret, but it is pretty much a default feature of that style of guitar including the high end ones. I've always figured the purpose was eliminate the open string sound so that all notes played sound like fretted notes. |
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| Author: | Tim Mullin [ Tue Mar 17, 2015 5:40 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Zero fret |
An interesting thread, as I have built both with and without. Good "conventional" nuts need to have properly cut slots to play and sound well, and a zero fret needs to be levelled and dressed with the rest of the frets on the board. If done properly, I can't see a string breaking over a metal fret or over a good nut material will sound much different. Slotted nuts and zero frets can both benefit from uniform nut compensation, but optimized string-by-string nut compensation (e.g., Gore and Gilet) is easiest to accomplish with a conventional nut. For looks, a zero fret only needs to lengthen the fingerboard a couple of mm -- file down the tangs and glue the zero fret in place so it doesn't break out the narrow piece toward the nut. How that tiny gap required for a zero fret could confuse a player is beyond me. A good zero fret is certainly easier to do well than is a good slotted nut -- you level the fret as you would for other frets, and your slots are deep enough to guide the string which must not touch the bottom. The market generally seems to want a slotted nut, but, as the medicated Hesh has said, most leave the maker/factory with slots that are too high (some even leave the factory with a QC tag with a spec that bears no resemblance to the slot as actually cut). Good nut slots require skill from training and practice. That'll take a while for most small builders, but you'll become quite proficient very quickly if you take in set up work from customers of other makers -- I know that has raised my skill level a lot! Without that practice, a small maker is more likely to make better zero frets. If a customer wants a zero fret, I'm happy to oblige. |
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| Author: | Rodger Knox [ Tue Mar 17, 2015 5:44 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Zero fret |
A discussion of intonation is not complete without mentioning there is another factor that contributes, specifically the longitudinal stiffness of the string. The vibrating length is something less than the fret-to-saddle distance due to the stiffness of the string, and that requires some length to be added. |
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