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| Author: | Tai Fu [ Sat Jun 28, 2014 10:57 am ] |
| Post subject: | counterfeit guitars |
Has any repair people run into counterfeit guitars? What are your policies regarding them? Do you still work on them despite the fact that you know the guitar is counterfeit (and the owner knows too)? Can you be in hot water with the original manufacturer for having worked on a counterfeit instrument? |
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| Author: | meddlingfool [ Sat Jun 28, 2014 11:11 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: counterfeit guitars |
Unlikely. What would they do? Why would they care? |
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| Author: | Chris Pile [ Sat Jun 28, 2014 1:39 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: counterfeit guitars |
They already have their money. They don't care if we shoot them to the moon, burn them in a campfire, or play them until our fingers bleed. If YOU want money, work on them. 'Nuff said. |
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| Author: | Tai Fu [ Sat Jun 28, 2014 1:47 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: counterfeit guitars |
Ok, I guess it's stating the obvious, but have anyone ran into someone who brought in a Gibson or others, but you discovered it was in fact a counterfeit (and the owner does not know). Do you have a duty to tell the owner that the instrument is counterfeit? |
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| Author: | bluescreek [ Sat Jun 28, 2014 1:52 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: counterfeit guitars |
Yes I have I will not touch them. I actually saw one brought into Martin . I will just say that they were not pleased. They explained to the man his guitar was in fact a copy and ask where he got it. They did give him a set of strings and sent him on his way. He didn't know it was a fake. On another episode a build came to show a guitar that he made and did knowingly put on a martin logo . They removed it . To me it isn't about money it is about ethics. I will know knowingly work on any fake. |
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| Author: | Tai Fu [ Sat Jun 28, 2014 1:56 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: counterfeit guitars |
I guess what's worse is someone with a fake guitar, asks you to do some work on it (like dress the frets because they were poorly done to begin with), then try to pass it off as real. One fake Gibson I seen looks so real that it's not hard to pass it off as real, except once you open her up, the truth comes out. |
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| Author: | Michiyuki Kubo [ Sat Jun 28, 2014 7:17 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: counterfeit guitars |
I would notify the owner because they might change their mind on the repair work. You might lose the job on it but you will be a better person for it. |
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| Author: | uvh sam [ Sun Jun 29, 2014 8:55 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: counterfeit guitars |
I had a guy bring in a zach wyld les Paul he bought from a friend that didn't play right, needed fretwork etc. at first glance it looked like Gibson had an off day making it but I didn't think too much of it until I tallied his quote and it was going to be around $250 which unsettled the customer. It was then that I began to look closer. No binding nibs... In fact the fretwork looked just like an epiphone lp. Then I checked the finish and it certainly wasn't nitro.... Then the pots, they where minis. All of this convinced me it was in fact the first fake I had ever seen. I notified the customer that I strongly believed that his guitar was not a real lp and asked what he wanted to do. I could tell his head was spinning cause he said he got a "good deal" at $1000 and I am telling him it needs considerable work an by the way it's fake. He said do the work and he left. Ten minutes later he calls up and changes his mind and he was going to take it back to HS friend and have a serious chat with him..... I would have done the work because it was his guitar and fake or not it should play well but if you do notice it fake, I think you should always inform the customer |
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| Author: | jack [ Sun Jun 29, 2014 9:39 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: counterfeit guitars |
.. |
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| Author: | wbergman [ Sun Jun 29, 2014 10:43 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: counterfeit guitars |
I am wondering how I would recognize a counterfeit. I expect that experts in some particular brand have a good chance of identifying that brand, but I am not even sure of that. Here are some examples. Jose Ramirez is about the most famous and long established name in classical guitars. Over the years, their labels changed. At some point, the more recent owners (descendants of the founder) lost track of all the different labels and the models sold years ago. The owners eventually relied upon the knowledge of outsiders to find out what the various labels were. At one point, the newer owners even had an academic dispute with an outside luthier on some of the historical information, until the luthier produced a letter addressed to him from Jose Ramirez III (deceased). So, even the Ramirez family are not experts on their own instruments, and they could have accidentally identified an older instrument as counterfeit, with full confidence. I toured the Martin factory a few years ago. The tour guide informed us that all rejected wooden parts are burned in a furnace. This seems not to be true, as some suppliers sell kit from reject Martin parts. There have been posts on OLF confirming that Martin does indeed let these reject parts out. The same tour guide stated that all Martin guitars are made in the USA in the Martin factory, even though there were boxed Martin guitars stacked up from Martin's Mexican factory. So here were two incidents of false information straight from Martin. I imagine there are innumerable other false "facts" about Martin guitars that were accidentally propagated at Martin or by any number of other people via the common way that rumors start. There was a recent auction in New York that included a Torres guitar valued at about $500,000. This was certified by and expert. Yet, I think that some posted on OLF their well informed opinions as to why they believed that the guitar was a counterfeit. So, given the inability to truly verify information, how can you be sure that a guitar is counterfeit? What if you had relied on Ramirez's own information regarding labels and incorrectly informed a client that their Ramirez was a fake, but, in actuality, it was a valuable old instrument? What if you saw the "Made in Mexico" mark on a Martin, but you did not realize that Martin had outsourced low end guitars to a Mexico factory? What if your relied on any number of other rumors that you accepted as facts? I do not believe that you or I are knowledgeable enough to certify the authenticity of a guitar made by someone else. |
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| Author: | uvh sam [ Sun Jun 29, 2014 11:23 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: counterfeit guitars |
I think that the op is not talking about well crafted replicas, but cheap chinese imitations of real guitars as they are more and more common to come across. I once read about a torres that was faked by one of his contemporaries and even today it is hard to tell the difference. But if you cannot tell the difference between a real martin and a chinese fake, you may need to do some more home work! (no offense intended by that comment, just that chinese counterfeits are pretty easy to spot) |
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| Author: | Tai Fu [ Sun Jun 29, 2014 11:47 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: counterfeit guitars |
Problem with Chinese fakes is that on the surface they look completely genuine, it is only when you open it up that the truth comes out. Anyone could have taken a picture of it and passed it off as genuine. Higher quality counterfeits or replicas are harder to tell, especially if they are made with the same craftsmanship and material as the original, and the builder was meticulous in detailing it to make it look real. Of course if someone built a guitar like that, it wouldn't be worth it because it would cost the builder more in time and money than to just go out and buy the genuine article. Unless the genuine article has artistic value that makes it worth more than what a stock would cost (for example, Fender Custom Shop strats that costs about 10,000 US, 40,000 dollar relic guitars, vintage guitars, etc.) Those Japanese lawsuit guitars are a prime example. Same or better craftsmanship than the genuine article, but it says something other than Gibson/Fender/etc. simply because in Japan headstock shape are not necessarily trademarked. I seen a few of those. |
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| Author: | RusRob [ Sun Jun 29, 2014 2:00 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: counterfeit guitars |
I personally don't think it is an ethical issue unless you are a Martin, Gibson or whatever representative or an authorized repair person. To me, a guitar is a guitar and if it needs a repair and the owner wants to pay for it then all is fair game. IF I were an authorized repair person for that specific make then it would be a different story. If I knew an instrument was a fake then I feel I would be obligated to tell the owner what I thought and why ( I would also tell them to get a second opinion and not just take my word). That wouldn't change my opinion about repairing it nor would it effect the quote I would give them for the repairs. I have found that people that don't spend much on a guitar are not willing to spend much on a repair so I think it all comes out in the wash in the end. Some may see it as an ethical issue but I feel if you are honest with your clients and don't put yourself up on some pedestal (unless you are obligated to do so by powers that be) and refuse work because you are above it then your clients will (and do) appreciate it and will come back to you for other work. That is my take on it. Bob |
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| Author: | bluescreek [ Sun Jun 29, 2014 5:18 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: counterfeit guitars |
Martin does sell the 2nds through Guitar Makers Connection they don't have a furnace but the wood that is not used up is sent to a factory and made into USB. It is true that many fakes are very hard to tell. Martin has a very detailed system of record keeping and can tell you that a serial mumber is on a particular instrument. I am an authorized Martin repair center to I feel It is my duty not to work on a known Martin fake. While some fakes may look good on the outside , it is the details that are often missed. Still it is always possible to get one by the experts. There are Martin fakes dating as far back as the mid 1800's. |
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| Author: | Tai Fu [ Sun Jun 29, 2014 5:21 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: counterfeit guitars |
USB? How many gigabytes does it hold? |
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| Author: | jfmckenna [ Mon Jun 30, 2014 8:55 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: counterfeit guitars |
I think there is an ethical issue because if you inform the customer that they have a fake and then fix it up real good they may in turn sell it off as the real deal and pass on the fake to some one else. So in that regard you are helping to perpetuate the fake. It's kinda like getting a counterfeit 20 dollar bill. You can buy something with it and probably get away with it but then the store owner or someone down the line realizes it's a fake and gets stuck taking a hit. IDK tough call on that one. |
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| Author: | Mike OMelia [ Mon Jun 30, 2014 10:01 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: counterfeit guitars |
John, I am pretty sure you meant "not knowingly". Also, would you check your PMs? Thanks! Mike |
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| Author: | Clay S. [ Mon Jun 30, 2014 10:27 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: counterfeit guitars |
If I thought the guitar was a fake I would inform the customer, and give the reasons I thought it was. There are times when we are mistaken. If the customer still wanted the work done (assuming it was to make the the instrument playable and not to add to the fraud) I would do it. A guitar is a guitar. That being said, I don't generally repair other peoples instruments. |
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