For binding and purfling? Thoughts?
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| wood vs celluoid https://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=43412 |
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| Author: | weslewis [ Fri May 09, 2014 12:47 pm ] |
| Post subject: | wood vs celluoid |
For binding and purfling? Thoughts?
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| Author: | theguitarwhisperer [ Fri May 09, 2014 12:54 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: wood vs celluoid |
For me, wood, especially acoustics. I just think, and this is my opinion, that the more plastic a guitar has molded or screwed onto it, the cheaper it looks. The more wood the classier and artistic. Some guitars you just expect plastic on, like a Les Paul, and it's okay, but a well appointed all wood decorated Les Paul looks amazing. |
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| Author: | kencierp [ Fri May 09, 2014 1:13 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: wood vs celluoid |
I'd say that wood bindings are generally associated with more custom made instruments, and honestly that is why they are standard in our KMG guitar kit packages. Personally I like the look of Ivroid and tortoise shell plastics, which I believe can look very elegant with the right wood combinations. Not a fan of white or black ABS -- Fiber is a better choice but be prepared to fight that stuff especially on the back contours. |
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| Author: | Tom West [ Fri May 09, 2014 1:26 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: wood vs celluoid |
theguitarwhisperer wrote: For me, wood, especially acoustics. I just think, and this is my opinion, that the more plastic a guitar has molded or screwed onto it, the cheaper it looks. The more wood the classier and artistic. My feelings are exactly the same.....!!! Tom |
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| Author: | weslewis [ Fri May 09, 2014 1:53 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: wood vs celluoid |
Anyone in laying with the stuff, how do end mills work for cutting |
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| Author: | DennisK [ Fri May 09, 2014 2:05 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: wood vs celluoid |
Both have their place. Wood only for me. Plastic would look totally out of place on my guitars. Plastic does look appropriate to me on certain vintage styles, from an era when it was the cool new fad. But on modern guitars like Taylors and many handmades, it just looks cheap. And anything styled more old fashioned than the invention of plastic, it's out of place... except for ivoroid as an ivory substitute, but then I never much liked the look of real ivory bindings either. Tortoise can look pretty cool on more modern styles though, as Jay has demonstrated here http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10130&t=43387 |
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| Author: | Greg B [ Fri May 09, 2014 3:22 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: wood vs celluoid |
Yeah, I think it really depends on the overall design of the individual instrument and vision of the maker. Either works for me, as long as all the elements go together well into a pleasing whole. Wood bindings just look wrong to me much of the time, mostly if used on an otherwise traditional american steel string. |
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| Author: | Haans [ Fri May 09, 2014 4:01 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: wood vs celluoid |
It's called celluloid folks. Plastic, no. Put it on a Les Paul. It really depends on the instrument you are making. I use celluloid because I am building vintage replicas. Modern instrument makers use wood for the most part. I don't build modern instruments. There is no versus... |
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| Author: | bluescreek [ Fri May 09, 2014 4:21 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: wood vs celluoid |
I am tortoise or ivroid and actually plastic is better at protecting the corners from a bump. Wood is another design feature while not as protective it has a look that many like. |
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| Author: | Terence Kennedy [ Fri May 09, 2014 4:30 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: wood vs celluoid |
I use quite a bit of celluloid. I like the look on a lot of my models. |
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| Author: | maxin [ Fri May 09, 2014 4:38 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: wood vs celluoid |
I guess a study in human nature? I don't get it --- "cheap" certainly is not meant to be complimentary and for sure there are guitars (beautiful, great ones!) with celluloid and abs bindings that can cost many thousands of dollars, not cheap! Seems it would be better left as a personal choice rather than some sort of value judgment. Does a person who likes wood binding, know more or love acoustic guitars more than a person who may like plastic binding for certain or all applications? And should those guitars be relegated as unworthy and cheap. I believe this fabulous hobby has no boundaries in the pursuit and creation of excellence. least of which may be the choice of material for ornamentation. |
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| Author: | kencierp [ Fri May 09, 2014 5:16 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: wood vs celluoid |
Not to be contrary -- but celluloid is a thermoplastic, I think one of the first invented. Burns like crazy! and one of the reasons so many movies theaters burnt to the ground. I understand that the celluloid film could burst into flame spontaneously let alone be near a careless projectionist smoking his cig or cigar. |
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| Author: | timoM [ Fri May 09, 2014 5:24 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: wood vs celluoid |
Having made my living for nearly four decades in part for my aesthetic abilities I know there is a place for nearly any material. The only limit is morality. Artistically we make choices as to where we want to take ourselves and our audience, some try to break new ground, others pay homage to something they revere. Many times it's a mixture of both. Personally I'm happiest when I try to see where someone is going and what motivates them. The word cheap to me is reserved for things far less crafted than any guitar I have seen here. To each their own. Happy building, Tim |
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| Author: | Clay S. [ Fri May 09, 2014 8:10 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: wood vs celluoid |
I use either material. They are equally cheap if you source them right. Sometimes I want the look of wood and sometimes I want the look of plastic. And ebony bindings look just like black plastic, but don't hold up as well. One of these days I will try doing some mammoth ivory bindings. Some mammoth dentine I have has a lovely brown mottled appearance similar to horn and takes a nice polish. |
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| Author: | weslewis [ Fri May 09, 2014 8:47 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: wood vs celluoid |
interesting, I have only used wood and shell so far but in trying to reduce the amount of shell I have been using different woods for inlays, latest being some really nice zebrawood inlayed in cocobola, some of the paua abalone celluloid on ebay I have seen looks more shell like than the shell??? I think we will give it a shot... |
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| Author: | Don Williams [ Fri May 09, 2014 9:01 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: wood vs celluoid |
I used to be a binding snob, feeling that only wood bindings were good enough for me and my wonderful guitars. Then I realized how pathetic my guitars really were, and that I had lofty ideals that had no basis in reality in reference to a reflection of the quality of my instruments. Then I started looking at and studying the old vintage instruments online and whenever I could get my hands on them. Just imagine an OM-45 style guitar without Ivoroid (celluloid) bindings... the whole look would be ruined. My latest has ivoroid bindings, and I love the look with the brick red brazilian. In fact, this is intended to be my personal guitar. |
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| Author: | Clay S. [ Sat May 10, 2014 9:05 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: wood vs celluoid |
At one time wood binding was an indication of a lower priced instrument. More expensive instruments used ivory. When plastics came on the scene white (imitating ivory) was used for upscale instruments and black plastic was used for instruments which formerly used wood bindings. |
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| Author: | bluescreek [ Sat May 10, 2014 9:22 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: wood vs celluoid |
from a design standpoint there are 3 wood bindings that I will use . Zebra Wood , Sycamore , and snakewood. I like them when I can personally cut them and use them as a book matched set. Zebra wood is like a natural herringbone. |
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| Author: | Glen H [ Mon May 12, 2014 7:57 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: wood vs celluoid |
IMHO nothing looks better than wood and nothing is easier than plastics. So guess which one I use more of the older I get  .Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk |
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| Author: | cphanna [ Mon May 12, 2014 9:28 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: wood vs celluoid |
Either can be spectacular when used properly. In my view, that means used with taste and restraint. Either can be a disaster when used without taste and restraint. We have all seen examples of instruments with too many woods of clashing colors and figures. Ditto with plastics used without regard to the overall visual presentation. I do agree with John Hall that plastic gives more protection to the hard corners of the instrument. I have bound instruments with both materials. I don't think there's a right or wrong choice. It's all in how that choice is applied to the instrument. |
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| Author: | Nick Royle [ Mon May 12, 2014 10:34 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: wood vs celluoid |
Anyone want to defend ebony binding? I tried bending ebony and cracked it all. The black ABS I used instead looks really good. I need black binding again soon and I'm trying to convince myself that I'm not cheapening the guitar at all by using ABS over ebony! 
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| Author: | TimAllen [ Tue May 13, 2014 12:00 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: wood vs celluoid |
I agree with all that's been said about it being a question of taste, and certainly ivoroid looks perfect when used to reproduce the style of certain vintage instruments. I do want to put in a word about durability. I have two instruments—a Harmony and a NY Epiphone—with badly deteriorating celluloid binding. It's beyond my skill to replace this, so they Harmony won't get fixed (unless I use it as a learner someday) and I'll pay someone good to fix the Epiphone. It won't be an inexpensive repair. If there was a material that looked the same as vintage celluloid, but didn't start to self-destruct in 50-60 years, that would be a great thing. |
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| Author: | kencierp [ Tue May 13, 2014 7:19 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: wood vs celluoid |
Regarding Ebony binding -- I've only used it on few Classical builds. I agree its a PIA to bend, what I finally ended up doing was laminating .028" Ebony veneer three layers, once in place it looks like a solid binding -- just a thought. |
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| Author: | Nick Royle [ Tue May 13, 2014 10:38 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: wood vs celluoid |
Thanks Ken, hadn't thought of that! |
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| Author: | CDKeith [ Tue May 13, 2014 11:50 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: wood vs celluoid |
I'm a sucker for Martin style-28 guitars, and to my eyes it just doesn't look quite right when the ivoroid binding is replaced by maple bindings. Conversely, I do like it when the ivoroid is replaced by darker wood, like rosewood or ebony. I really like the austere aesthetics of Nick Kukich's OMs. For bending ebony, try spritzing it with Super-Soft 2 the night before. I've done this 3 or 4 times now, and I haven't cracked a piece yet. |
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