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Help with Slotted Headstock
https://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=43079		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  RusRob [ Fri Mar 28, 2014 9:17 am ]
Post subject:  Help with Slotted Headstock
I originally ordered standard tuning pegs for this Parlor but decided to do a slotted headstock instead. I received them a couple of days ago but I have a bit of a problem.

I had already glued my rosewood headplate but decided not to put on the thin maple veneer under it since I was going to use the standard tuners it didn't really matter.

However, Now that I have switched to the slotted tuners I find I don't have enough thickness in the headstock.

Even if I had put the veneer on it still wouldn't be thick enough for the faceplate on the tuners. I know I can put another veneer on the back of the headstock and that is probably what I will end up doing.

My concern is that this headstock (without the veneer) is only 1/2" and the plans show it should be 5/8"

What I need to know is 1/2" enough thickness for drilling the holes for the tuners? I know putting the veneer on makes it stronger but there isn't much "beef" in just the Mahogany headstock.

Here are a couple of shots that may explain it better than I did with words...

Thanks for any help,

Bob
Author:  RusRob [ Fri Mar 28, 2014 9:28 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Help with Slotted Headstock
And BTW, If I had to order these tuners again... I wouldn't waste my money. They were totally inconsistent in the tension while turning them. Some were easy to turn and some were really hard and were binding. I first oiled them and then spun them in my drill but it didn't really help. I ended up having to take pliers to them to spread the bails out to align them so they would work smoothly. For $80 I would expect much more. but they do look pretty nice.

I won't mention the name or the supplier but I think you can figure it out just by looking at them.

I wasn't happy with the color of the knobs either they were just slightly off-white. Simple fix... I soaked them in a shallow bowl of coffee for a couple of hours to get this nice vintage look.
Author:  Andy Birko [ Fri Mar 28, 2014 9:34 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Help with Slotted Headstock
The neck to head stock transition isn't visible in your photos but could you throw a thick veneer on the back of the headstock to give you a bit more thickness?
Author:  LarryH [ Fri Mar 28, 2014 9:38 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Help with Slotted Headstock
Andy Birko wrote:
...could you through a thick veneer on the back of the headstock to give you a bit more thickness?


That's what I would do, and have done. It's too hard to get the tuners exactly perfect without some room to play with and if you miss a little and have some of the tuner hanging over the edge - ouch and looks like crap.
Author:  johnparchem [ Fri Mar 28, 2014 9:43 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Help with Slotted Headstock
LarryH wrote:
Andy Birko wrote:
...could you through a thick veneer on the back of the headstock to give you a bit more thickness?


That's what I would do, and have done. It's too hard to get the tuners exactly perfect without some room to play with and if you miss a little and have some of the tuner hanging over the edge - ouch and looks like crap.


Yup I have been there and have done just as they suggested.
Author:  RusRob [ Fri Mar 28, 2014 10:16 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Help with Slotted Headstock
I guess what my question is about the thickness of the Mahogany itself. I will put a veneer on the back but I was wondering if there is enough material to support drilling holes in the 1/2" headstock. Since the plans call for it being 5/8".

An added question: This neck has a diamond Volute, Is that really nessesary? If I am going to veneer the back it would be easier to remove it and wouldn't the veneer give the added stiffness?
Author:  johnparchem [ Fri Mar 28, 2014 10:30 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Help with Slotted Headstock
yikes 5/8ths? Drill the holes to the tuner spec, not the plan. Probably 6 mm or about a 1/4 inch. You will have enough mahogany to drill the holes. The volute is usually decorative.
Author:  arie [ Fri Mar 28, 2014 10:58 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Help with Slotted Headstock
RusRob wrote:
I guess what my question is about the thickness of the Mahogany itself. I will put a veneer on the back but I was wondering if there is enough material to support drilling holes in the 1/2" headstock. Since the plans call for it being 5/8".

An added question: This neck has a diamond Volute, Is that really nessesary? If I am going to veneer the back it would be easier to remove it and wouldn't the veneer give the added stiffness?



just put a veneer of rswd on the back and center the tuner plates -you'll be fine. imo, the diamond volute is supposed to look like a bridle joint and if you didn't use one why fake it? the volute serves as a hand stop and adds extra thickness to the area, (assuming your scarf is in the headstock rather then in the neck shaft that is) but does nothing for the scarf joint in either area. veneers can help support a scarf joint in the headstock.

i like the call-out on the print: "High Quality Tuning Machines -(Purchase)" apparently your tuners were not "High Quality" :)
Author:  Freeman [ Fri Mar 28, 2014 11:03 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Help with Slotted Headstock
Most of my slothead plans show the total thickness of the headstock at 3/4". You can plane the volute off and graft a piece of mahogany veneer on the back - that does have the advantage of strengthening the cross grain of you one piece neck against breaking, but whatever you do, you need it thick enough. Here is a picture of a recent slot head that I built using basically the same tuners

Image

If you are going to use the three-on-a-plate tuners be very careful about aligning and drilling the holes. Best to use a jig but I simply clamp my headstock to a block of wood and level the edge with respect to my drill press table. That's a block of wood in the slot to keep in from splintering

Image

I have used those tuners in both six and twelve string versions and agree that they are not as smooth as nice singles. In addition, if you get the holes a hair off you will add to the binding. I'm going to suggest that you keep these tuners for your next slot head guitar and go ahead and make this one a paddle head.
Author:  Colin North [ Fri Mar 28, 2014 12:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Help with Slotted Headstock
Put a backstrap on and you'll be fine.
I would drill the tuner holes before cutting the slots.
Author:  RusRob [ Fri Mar 28, 2014 12:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Help with Slotted Headstock
Thanks for the help guys, I just wasn't sure if it would be safe to drill the holes in that thin of a headstock. This neck is an LMI pre-carved and I am not sure why it is only 1/2" but that is what I have to work with. Next one I will make myself so Ill chalk it up to "one more thing learned". [:Y:]

Yea I think these tuners really suck. I kinda thought for $80 they would be a little better quality than they are. But then again I am not spending $300 which I think is ridiculous for a set of tuners. I guess should feel grateful...

Freeman, Thanks for the info about being careful about drilling the holes. I am planning on making a jig out of some hard maple to make sure I get them aligned properly. I see there are some metal ones out there but I don't see why I can't just make my own. My preference is actually paddle head and I am not really crazy about slot heads but the guitar I am styling this after is a slot so I would like to stick to my plan. Of course I would pick the hardest one for my first... Why would I want to make it easy on myself? [headinwall]

Cheers,
Bob

Just saw your post Collin,

Thanks, and I was thinking drilling the holes first. I was wondering about how that would work using a router to cut the slots if the holes are already in. I have done stuff like that on other things and didn't have a problem. I will be making a jig to cut the slots so the router won't be able to jump anywhere when it hits the holes.

Is that how most people cut their slots?

I noticed in your other thread about gouging into the wood and it got me thinking about making a jig with a ramp on it for cutting the slots and the ramp. All you would need would be a tri-angle piece for the router to sit flat on the way up the ramp. Just an idea...
Author:  Colin North [ Fri Mar 28, 2014 12:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Help with Slotted Headstock
Quote:
Thanks, and I was thinking drilling the holes first. I was wondering about how that would work using a router to cut the slots if the holes are already in. I have done stuff like that on other things and didn't have a problem. I will be making a jig to cut the slots so the router won't be able to jump anywhere when it hits the holes.

Is that how most people cut their slots?

Only way to go Joe.
Sorry, got carried away.
Yes I believe that most people do it in that order.
Have a look on youtube. seems to go quite smoothly.
I just did one that way using Robbie O'Brians method (drill press) and had no problems running across the tuner holes.
Author:  Freeman [ Fri Mar 28, 2014 3:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Help with Slotted Headstock
I do a scarfed joined headstock so it is easiest to drill the holes for the slots on a drill press and clean them up with a rasp. I then glue everything up but keep the sides parallel - that gives me a reference for routing the truss rod slot and cutting the tenon. Finally I cut the taper of the neck and the headstock, and drill the tuner holes as per my earlier pictures. Yes, there is a possibility of chipping out the holes.

Image

btw - my volute is purely decorative and is glued on over the scarf joint - I make traditional looking instruments and it is part of the vib. Of course in the old days that was part of the elegant "birds beak" joint. Also, making a router template would be nice but I do six and twelve string slot heads with both round and squared ends - I would need several and the drill press works very well.
Author:  Clay S. [ Fri Mar 28, 2014 9:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Help with Slotted Headstock
Hi Bob,
You might consider using the figure 8 paddle head design a lot of the old French guitars used. It would work with the neck and also with the style of the guitar you are building. Pegheds would give it a cool vintage vibe.
Veneering the back of the peg head should get you close if you do go with the slotted type. I would cut the veneer around the volute rather than eliminating it, but it could look good either way.
Author:  Ruby50 [ Sat Mar 29, 2014 10:17 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Help with Slotted Headstock
Don't cut off the volute - just cut your back veneer to fit:
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