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| dowel joints? https://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=42959 |
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| Author: | Tai Fu [ Thu Mar 13, 2014 3:59 am ] |
| Post subject: | dowel joints? |
Has any repairmen here encountered a neck reset with dowel joints? What do you do to get it back on? I have a mandolin with a dowel joint, and the joint came loose. I quoted for a neck reset and a refret (they go together)... I basically cut the neck off and converted it into a butt joint bolt on. However it was insanely difficult (if not impossible) to insert and tighten a bolt inside a tiny mandolin body that has F holes instead of sound holes. I ended up using one of those flex shaft screwdriver extensions so I can get a screw inside. I also had to drill through the neck from the heel in order to insert a wood screw in addition to the bolt to prevent it from losing alignment. The neck is black so everything touches up nicely. |
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| Author: | Hesh [ Thu Mar 13, 2014 5:12 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: dowel joints? |
Doweled neck joints are typically found on inexpensive instruments and this sort of joint was never intended to be serviceable in the sense that it can be reset with conventional practices. Often it's the case that the cost of a reset will exceed the value of instruments with doweled neck joints. There are three approaches to these instruments when they need a reset: 1) Because of the cost of doing a reset and the low value of these instruments, typically...., they are disposable and were made to be disposable so it's often the case that the client will decline or the Luthier will, after explaining the lack of serviceability, suggest that the client simply pitch the thing and get a new one. Wall hangings? 2) In Michigan we call it a "California reset" and it would not surprise me that if in time the good folks of California wanna call it a Michigan reset. It's an effort to jockey the distorted upper bout back to it's original geometry through adding creative buttressing distorting the box shape back to what it was and correcting, for now... the neck angle. The neck is not removed, the joint not disturbed but instead that body if forced back in a bit of an unnatural act.... to correct the neck angle. Sometimes this is successful, sometimes it's not.... making this a bit of a questionable practice in terms of guaranteeing results. 3) Cut the neck off and convert to a butt joint, refit with the correct angle, and bolt it on. One of the issues with proposing the butt joint is the expense and unless you are billing on the cheap in my experience option three has other risks too. Even if the client decides to pay for a reset which can be a $450 thing.... you have to be absolutely sure that this level of exposure does not put them over the edge which could lead to them not picking up the instrument and you getting stuck with it. Something to consider with higher dollar repairs anyway. Getting stuck with a non-servicable instrument after doing the work has an opportunity cost and as such everyone loses.... |
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| Author: | bluescreek [ Thu Mar 13, 2014 5:39 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: dowel joints? |
We all find different ways to handle the same problem. When I run into a neck that I suspect is a doweled joint I will cut the fretboard off 2 -3 frets up the neck. This allows me to drill a few holes and help spread the joint for cutting the dowels. I have even got lucky and had one guitar pop off them. Now like Hesh I replace the dowels and make it a bolt on. Sometimes the dowels are not in line so you may have to layout for 2 bolts. the rest is the same as Hesh. |
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| Author: | violinvic [ Thu Mar 13, 2014 7:23 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: dowel joints? |
In the book,"Constructing a mandolin", by R. Siminoff, the doweled neck joint is one option that is explained in detail. The dovetail joint goes straight through the top and neck block before the back is glued on. After gluing the neck and leveling the back side of the neck block and neck, a dowel hole is drilled on both sides of the neck/neck block joint. Dowels are glued in and then the back is glued on to hide what you just did.He also puts in a disclaimer that it is a very difficult joint to get back apart, but his logic is that it is a super tough joint and should never have to come apart. I am finishing my first mando and used this joint. I will check back in about 100 years and let you know how it holds up. Pals, Vic. |
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| Author: | Hesh [ Thu Mar 13, 2014 11:16 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: dowel joints? |
violinvic wrote: In the book,"Constructing a mandolin", by R. Siminoff, the doweled neck joint is one option that is explained in detail. The dovetail joint goes straight through the top and neck block before the back is glued on. After gluing the neck and leveling the back side of the neck block and neck, a dowel hole is drilled on both sides of the neck/neck block joint. Dowels are glued in and then the back is glued on to hide what you just did.He also puts in a disclaimer that it is a very difficult joint to get back apart, but his logic is that it is a super tough joint and should never have to come apart. I am finishing my first mando and used this joint. I will check back in about 100 years and let you know how it holds up. Pals, Vic. Vic are you coming to our open house in Ann Arbor on the 29th? Would love to meet you finally! I have two issues with Roger's neck joint approach. First servicability is important especially with high-end instruments. You don't want to have some hack have to take a chain saw to a neck joint either from a lack of understanding as to what kind of joint that it is or because the joint was not designed to be serviced in the future. And second it's not the neck joint that needs to be bulletproof so-to-speak to avoid a neck reset in the future. Neck resets are a function of the upper bout or similiar areas on other instruments deforming and distorting over time and from string tension. No matter what neck joint one does this in and of itself will not avoid the possible need for a neck reset someday. Not to mention economics, just sent one away from our shop because the repairs would be well over $1K for an instrument currently worth perhaps $250.... Servicability plays into the economic thing in a big way. Make an instrument more difficult to service and it will likely come up against the cost/benefit thing some day. |
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| Author: | Tai Fu [ Thu Mar 13, 2014 11:20 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: dowel joints? |
I don't really see why people like spanish heel joints. Serviceability is about zero with that joint. Maybe it's fine for classical guitars but I have heard of classical guitars needing a neck reset as well so I still think dovetail is a good compromise. |
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| Author: | Kevin Waldron [ Thu Mar 13, 2014 11:47 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: dowel joints? |
Think that Victor, is talking about a different style neck joint.... it's not a butt joint but dowels placed in the back of the heel area through the head block. The only way to properly remove this kind of joint is remove the back. This is often the joint used for F and A style mandolin that are arched top. If the instrument where a pancake or flat top instrument it could be a dowel joint direct to the top of the head block as used with guitars and ukulele. Drawing should help make it clear if it's and F style. Blessings, Kevin |
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| Author: | Tai Fu [ Thu Mar 13, 2014 2:13 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: dowel joints? |
In my case I charged about 400 dollars for the repair, and got at least half the price paid upfront (In the future I will require full payment upfront for this kind of work). It wasn't that much work because the neck was partially off, so all it took was basically cutting the fingerboard in half, removing the dowel snubs and somehow drilling an accurate hole for bolt on hardware. It worked well and it's hard to spot the repair now. |
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