Official Luthiers Forum!

Let me introduce my self and thank you. My name is Robert and I thank you because I used your forum a few years ago to help build my first classical guitar in 2007. It is a Hauser plantilla with a Fleta style top...Forgive me purists!!! But I really like how the cedar top plays and sounds and have performed with it at many weddings, funerals, and other functions. It has a French polished top and varnished back, sides, and neck. It was assembled with hot hide glue. I have started a second guitar...An 1864 Torres style. This time will try a spruce top. The first guitar was made with much reading on this forum and with the methods from the Courtnall book. Thank you again.

My primary interest is playing but a few of my friends think that since I built a guitar I should be able to repair guitars too. I humbly acknowledge this is an entirely different subject. I have however done a few minor repairs....gluing bridges back on....fret work...and etc.

I recently had an opportunity to buy the guitar that I will attempt to attach photos of. I bought it because I could discern it was luthier made and has very high quality materials and craftsmanship.
The name inside the body is Wesley Scott Lorber. He still has a website and a working phone #. I tried contacting him to try and find out more history of the instrument but he has not returned my inquiries. Maybe he visits this forum and will see the photos. Before I removed the old strings I played it a little, It has a very nice action and sounded sweet for the dead strings. I can tell it will be a nice player with lots of pretty overtones.

As you can see in the photos it has some very nice inlay work and I suppose East Indian Rosewood back and sides (please correct if I am wrong). It also has a very nice spruce top that is cracked in the lower bout. It also has spider web type cracking in the finish which I suppose was sprayed on. At this time I am gently re-hydrating the body with damp sponges in baggies inside the body in an attempt to get the crack to close. I can tell that it has moved somewhat in the last couple of weeks. The guitar is being kept in its very nice case during this procedure. My intention is to use hide glue in the crack when it closes and to make and install a few spruce patches on the inside under the crack. Then scrape off and refinish the top only. I do not intend to keep the guitar, I want to fix it up and sell it for materials for the next project. I already have a Taylor 710 CE with electronics that I use when playing with groups that require something different than my classical guitar.

I would appreciate thoughts on the repair...If the methods are not sound please let me know. I know this a fine guitar and would not want to do irreversible damage. Thank you for your input.

Robert

Hello Robert and welcome.




My main focus has been in guitar repair for a number of years and I am just building my first guitar and you are correct it saying it is an entirely different subject. Although some of the things cross paths building and repairing are very different.

First, that is a fine looking instrument and it should make someone very happy. But the crack should be stabilized as soon as possible but not before re-hydrating it as you appear to already know. It can take quite a while to bring it back to the proper humidity, a couple of months sometimes. The one thing you should find out is since it is a hand made guitar is where it was made and what the environment was when it was built. It is a very well discussed issue about humidity in shops and most good luthiers know that 40 to 45% humidity is the target when building guitars. I won't go into the why's of it but that is usually the range.

So it appears you are doing the correct thing by re-hydrating the guitar to see if the crack will close up. If you don't have a hydrometer in the case you probably should (I am guessing you do). The next thing is to determine why it is cracked. It could be just a humidity issue or it could be more. I can't evaluate the guitar very well from pictures but I do see a number of cracks around the bridge. They look to be just finish cracks but it would be a good idea to inspect the inside around the bridge very carefully for a cracked bridge plate or cracked or loose braces. That needs to be figured out before trying to fix anything since reparing the crack will not do any good if there is underlying damage that needs to be fixed first.

As for repairing the crack, I would advise against refinishing the top unless it is absolutely necessary, I have many years in refinishing and have done repairs like this before. But the amount of work and time you will have into it may not be worth it if you are just going to resell it. A repaired crack in a guitar top is acceptable to most guitar players that know anything about guitars and is usually preferred over a refinished top. A seam crack usually will not really effect the tone of a guitar unless it involved the braces. So a good repair is what most repair guys would recommend.

After being sure the braces and structure is not involved the repair is not that difficult. Hot hide glue is the best way since it can actually help close the gap. If the crack is not offset (one side higher than the other) and you can close it up by putting a cloth band clamp around the lower bout with minimal pressure you will be in great shape. Just get your HHG glue ready and use a small paint brush to brush the glue into the crack and then tighten your clamp down. You should get squeeze out inside and out. Make sure you clean it up really well on the inside so you can put cleats over the crack. Small diamond shaped cleats are the norm with the grain running across or on an angle to the top grain.

That is how I would repair it and it will probably last for the life of the guitar if done properly. Re-finishing the top will serve no purpose other than trying to hide the fact it had been cracked. I have had clients that insisted on refinishing because they didn't want to see the crack. Which is fine as long as they know it can reduce the value of an instrument but the norm is to just repair the crack and let it be visible. As long as someone buying it knows it has been fixed correctly there should be no problem.

Hope this helps,

Cheers,
Bob

Is that crack above the bridge as well or is that a dark grain line part of the crack line?

If its a darker grain line ...its a good indication that the wood was flawed to start with, although it does not seem to appear in the mirror half.

A single darker grain line is indication that the tree was injured in that year of its growth and therefor the Achilles heal.

Crack probably has to be cleaned, then glued...the repair dudes will hopefully post on best way to deal with this.

A few might even suggest fitting and gluing in replacement wood, which is what me wood do especially if that crack/grain line is the not so hidden 5th.

Wiz it over to Hesh and get him 2 cents worth.



blessings
Padma

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Audiences and dispensations on Thursdays ~ by appointment only.


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@the Padma




No, I would not suggest cleaning the crack since I have never found trying to clean a crack works very well and will only result in a more visible crack.


This is a guitar I bought a few years ago, It is a Martin EMP-1 limited edition (only 600 made) The previous owner abused it and it had been dried out pretty badly, the center seam had separated. The problem with this one was that someone had tired to fix it with some kind of putty or something that was soft and in doing so it ended up curling the edges of the crack up. I think they had tried to clean it before putting that substance in it and that is why it was curled up.

My repair is exactly what you were talking about in putting new wood in.

How I fix it was to cut the lifted section out which ended up about 1/8". I cut the sides of the gap into a V shaped slot. I then searched through all of my spruce to find a piece of similar color and grain which I slipped into the groove and used hot hide glue to set it in place with tape strips pulling the seam together. Cleated the back and then spot-refinished the lower bout.

You can just barely see the splice and the repair is only visible if I point it out. I was reluctant to refinish the seam but by the time I had sanded the finish back it jumped out like a sore thumb so I decided on doing the spot re-finish. If you look closely you can see where it was blended in below the sides of the bridge. I had to match the existing aging of the clear so I tinted and blended it in.

This repair would have cost a client a pretty penny but since I picked it up for a song and I did the work it was worth it to me. A good share of the clients I know would probably not wanted to pay nearly what the guitar is worth to fix it.

Bob

forgot to attach the full shot of the repair...

You can just see in this photo where it is a bit darker under the bridge. It is barely visible in person.

Thanks for the replies gentlemen, I appreciate your input and feel good about at least being on track with re-hydrating the box, correct glue, cleats and etc. I also appreciate the comments of perhaps not re-finishing the top, I know some guitarist may not like the cracked finish but truly tone is what we should be after.

Bob, the repair on the Martin looks excellent.....

The other cracks you mentioned Bob around the bridge are in the finish only...And Padma observed a line above the bride on the same plane as the crack in the lower bout. The finish is really opened here but it is not thru the wood. I have put a strong light in the box and it only appears in the lower bout. The best I can tell the braces are all well secured. When I played it with the dead strings I did not get any unusual buzzing. I think I will put new strings on and play it a little more then reduce the tension a little to keep the stress close to normal so it does not warp somewhere else. In the meantime during storage will keep re-hydrating it. I do not have a hygrometer at this time....I have a couple of plastic bags with sponges inside to try and hydrate it gently. I will also measure the crack to see if I am making progress.

Thanks again guys for your input....If something else pops into mind please let me know.

Robert

I recall seeing a similar crack repair being cleaned with Ozone Water a number of years ago. I believe it was Frank Ford who was explaining the process, but I may be wrong? Cleaned the crack up so it was invisible after the repair.
That guitar looks very familiar from Mario's forum from circa 2005-06.

Bob