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| Which Glue for Bindings and Perfling https://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=42262 |
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| Author: | RusRob [ Sun Dec 22, 2013 3:43 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Which Glue for Bindings and Perfling |
Hi Guys, I know this has been asked and I did a search on the forum here but I ended up with over 6,000 hits and couldn't find specifically what I was looking for. In another post I asked about using Teak for my bindings. I have decided to go with the teak and black/red/black perfling. My question is about gluing them in and which is the best glue to use. It was mentioned that Teak is an oily wood and may be hard to glue in. I just ordered the perfling from LMI which is died wood. My guitar sides and back is EIR and the top is Spruce. I have heard some of you say you are really happy using fish glue, I have never used it before but I do use hot hide glue on all of my brace work, Bridge work and for repairing cracks so I am very familiar with the open time of HHG. My questions are: What glue is best to use in laminating my perfling? What is best to use when installing my choice of binding/perfling (Teak binding, LMI died perfling and Spruce kerfing)? What brand/vendor is best to get fish glue? I have always used Stew Mac's Weld-On Cement for binding but I have only ever bound plastic bindings on Gibson/Martin so I am not familiar with the best choice for wood binding. Thanks for your help and advice. Bob |
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| Author: | Jim Kirby [ Sun Dec 22, 2013 4:31 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Which Glue for Bindings and Perfling |
I've been taking two approaches to binding. (1) get it all in place, nice and tight, and then spot weld it with CA, after which you can remove tape and finish filling areas that didn't get filled by wick action in the first place. (2) fish glue. Get the purfling and binding channels coated, run some along the individual strips with your fingers, laminate all the strips together while working the glue between everything, lay the strips in the channels and keep working the glue in, tape as you go. It's very tactile, and can be done in slow motion as the glue has such a long open time. Both work for me. I'm starting to prefer approach (2). Lee Valley is a good source for the glue. I use fish now for essentially everything. I do use HHG for gluing in dentellones (old style classical top to side blocks) as I need the immediate grab. I don't have a bottle of PVA in my possession unless I'm working on a furniture project. Fish glue does take it's time drying. Just let anything you use it on sit over night. |
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| Author: | ernie [ Sun Dec 22, 2013 5:35 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Which Glue for Bindings and Perfling |
same as above, except still using t- bond to laminate heel blocks and scarf joint for neck |
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| Author: | StevenWheeler [ Sun Dec 22, 2013 5:49 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Which Glue for Bindings and Perfling |
RusRob wrote: Teak binding, LMI died perfling and Spruce kerfing In my experience kerfings are notoriously difficult to get binding and pufling adhered to no matter what glue you use. You'll be much better off gluing to the linings.  There is really no "best" adhesive for the job, just preferences of different builders. I use pva for binding with wood. I don't like the excessive open time of fish glue. |
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| Author: | RusRob [ Sun Dec 22, 2013 6:50 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Which Glue for Bindings and Perfling |
Thanks for the info guys, I do a pretty good job using Weld-On Cement which has a really short open time. But then that is used on plastic which I know is easier than wood. Quote: In my experience kerfings are notoriously difficult to get binding and pufling adhered to no matter what glue you use. You'll be much better off gluing to the linings. Isn't that the same thing? I have always associated linings with classical guitars and kerfing with steel string. So you don't think the Teak will give me problems sticking to the perfling? In another thread I was cautioned about Teak being oily and hard to glue. |
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| Author: | Tom West [ Sun Dec 22, 2013 7:38 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Which Glue for Bindings and Perfling |
Robert: It might be a good idea to try gluing up some test samples to see how well the teak is going to glue........! Better that then find out while doing the binding that things are not going well. Tom |
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| Author: | unkabob [ Sun Dec 22, 2013 8:32 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Which Glue for Bindings and Perfling |
I seem to remember someone saying that you should wipe down oily wood with acetone before you glue it to get good adhesion. Teak would be considered an oily wood. Bob 
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| Author: | TimAllen [ Sun Dec 22, 2013 9:02 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Which Glue for Bindings and Perfling |
I have done one two with CA and one with fish glue. As a beginner at this, I want the least stressful and most forgiving approach, and the fish glue is definitely that compared to CA. I am more than happy to have a slow process because it gives me time to get things done right and correct problems. I agree that you will benefit from testing your wood with the glue you will use. I suspect teak will be fine with fish glue. If you want you can test the solvent wipe vs. no wipe and pick your side of the debate in this contentious (and crucially important) controversy. |
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| Author: | runamuck [ Sun Dec 22, 2013 10:47 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Which Glue for Bindings and Perfling |
I use CA. You get everything in place, all taped up, everything exactly right, and then wick the glue in. I can't imagine less stress. You could take forever before applying the adhesive if you wanted. |
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| Author: | Jim Kirby [ Mon Dec 23, 2013 7:02 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Which Glue for Bindings and Perfling |
Yeah, I see the CA as a zero stress option too. You can work at taping the bindings until everything is perfectly in place, then start wicking in the glue. I've just come to like the fish glue better. I should say that random accidental drips of CA leave horrible dark splotches on cypress that seemingly don't sand out, which was my initial main reason for switching from CA to fish. |
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| Author: | Clinchriver [ Mon Dec 23, 2013 7:35 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Which Glue for Bindings and Perfling |
RusRob wrote: Thanks for the info guys, I do a pretty good job using Weld-On Cement which has a really short open time. But then that is used on plastic which I know is easier than wood. Quote: In my experience kerfings are notoriously difficult to get binding and pufling adhered to no matter what glue you use. You'll be much better off gluing to the linings. Isn't that the same thing? I have always associated linings with classical guitars and kerfing with steel string. So you don't think the Teak will give me problems sticking to the perfling? In another thread I was cautioned about Teak being oily and hard to glue. He's trying to pull your leg "Kerfed" lining is the correct term and what is a kerf?:) I use Duco cement and recently titebond extend, do some trial glue ups and see which works for your application. |
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| Author: | gxs [ Mon Dec 23, 2013 9:04 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Which Glue for Bindings and Perfling |
When I have done this, it was to repair pieces so I use Tite Bond to eliminate to risk to the area around which I am working. TB cleans up with a damp cloth. I think CA would be easier and quicker, but I only use it when I have to. |
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| Author: | RusRob [ Mon Dec 23, 2013 10:17 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Which Glue for Bindings and Perfling |
I really appreciate your suggestions and help guys. The one suggestion that a lot of you made is to do some trial runs. If there is one thing I learned it is that. I will glue up some practice parts first to make sure I know what works the best. I was hoping (and did) to get your experiences before I got to that stage so I apreciate hearing what you all do and the benefit of why you do it. The one thing I won't use is CA glue, I found out a long time ago that it will stain the wood and requires a lot of sanding to remove the traces of it. I do use it for drop filling sometimes as well as for hairline cracks but not much else. I want anything I do to be reversible so hide glue is my first choice for most jobs. Quote: He's trying to pull your leg "Kerfed" lining is the correct term and what is a kerf?:) I use Duco cement and recently titebond extend, do some trial glue ups and see which works for your application. I kind of figured that but didn't want to post a smartass comment, so I figured I would be polite about it. I have never used Titebond Extend so I will pick some up along with the fish glue. And I seem to have figured out how to do the Duco cement pretty well (I am pretty sure that is what Stew Mac sells as their Weld On. Which I think is just regular old model cement. Again, Thanks all, Bob |
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| Author: | StevenWheeler [ Mon Dec 23, 2013 8:18 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Which Glue for Bindings and Perfling |
RusRob wrote: Quote: He's trying to pull your leg "Kerfed" lining is the correct term and what is a kerf?:) I kind of figured that but didn't want to post a smartass comment, so I figured I would be polite about it. And thank you for playing nice Bob. Some folks are really touchy about proper terminology and others aren't. I'm in the middle but my technical background leans me toward the former. About oily woods and PVA adhesives. The only time I had a joint fail using PVA on oily wood was the time I wiped Cocobolo down with solvent prior to gluing. Others swear by it. My procedure is to freshly sand or scrape prior to gluing, I've never had a failure using this technique. The point of both methods is to remove any oxidation and or oil from the surface so that it cannot interfere with the glue joint. Steve |
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| Author: | Josh H [ Mon Dec 23, 2013 9:49 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Which Glue for Bindings and Perfling |
One other thing to consider is how easy the glue you are using is to clean up after everything is dry. This is one of the big reasons I switched to fish glue a few years back. It dries harder than Titebond and as a result is easier to sand and scrape. Josh |
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| Author: | RusRob [ Mon Dec 23, 2013 11:46 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Which Glue for Bindings and Perfling |
@Steve Quote: And thank you for playing nice Bob. I found out a long time ago that when posting on a forum it is wise to choose your words carefully. The written word is open to interpretation. Besides I don't like to make waves and this forum is a nice place to hang out. Quote: My procedure is to freshly sand or scrape prior to gluing, I've never had a failure using this technique. I've done a number of bridge replacements and I always scrape them just prior to gluing and have never had one fail either. @Josh Quote: One other thing to consider is how easy the glue you are using is to clean up after everything is dry. This is one of the big reasons I switched to fish glue a few years back. It dries harder than Titebond and as a result is easier to sand and scrape. Josh That is what I like so much about hhg, As soon as it starts to turn to jello you can just roll it off and you don't need water. I am assume fish glue is similar. Cheers, Bob |
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| Author: | TimAllen [ Tue Dec 24, 2013 1:10 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Which Glue for Bindings and Perfling |
Regarding fish glue being lower stress and more forgiving than CA, I should have made clearer that that would mainly apply to relative beginners. If you're at the point where you tape up the bindings with outglue and are confident everything is exactly perfect, CA is low stress. When I used it that technique, the stress came from the (well-founded) concern that I hadn't really gotten it perfect and that there was no expedient way to fix things once the CA was applied. I eventually concluded that, at my current level of skill, I can't get it close enough with just tape. With fish glue, I can take my time to press everything in place with cord or rubber bands, which provide more pressure than I can get with tape. If something goes wrong, even if the glue has set for hours, I can wick in a little water, gently heat, and readjust that part. |
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| Author: | Jim Kirby [ Tue Dec 24, 2013 8:16 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Which Glue for Bindings and Perfling |
It's probably not advised, and I don't know what impact it has on long term stability of the glue line, but in a few cases where I've had a gap using CA, I've been able to loosen the area enough using a few drops of acetone and push it closed, adding more CA after the acetone has mostly evaporated. No harder than wetting the fish glue. (I'm still voting for fish, but goofs in almost all methods can be fixed somehow.) |
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| Author: | Josh H [ Tue Dec 24, 2013 3:01 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Which Glue for Bindings and Perfling |
Fish is different from HHG in how it dries. While HHG can be easily removed once it jells, fish is not the same. Fish will skin over as it dries, but until does it is just sticky. The trick is to not use more than you need so that it is not dripping glue down the sides of the guitar while you work. Wipe off any glue blobs with your finger while they are still wet, or with a damp rag. Josh |
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| Author: | RusRob [ Tue Dec 24, 2013 4:01 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Which Glue for Bindings and Perfling |
@Josh, Thanks for the tip on fish glue. I have a bottle ordered so I will get a chance to test it out but will keep your advice in mind. @Jim Kirby, Thanks for the info on loosing up CA glue. I do use it for specific things but most of my gluing is done with HHG or Titebond. I use HHG for parts of a guitar that are associated with producing sound (braces, bridges etc...) All other parts I use Titebond. |
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