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'Expectations' from wood vendors...
https://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=42184		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  meddlingfool [ Sat Dec 14, 2013 5:48 pm ]
Post subject:  'Expectations' from wood vendors...
Just wondered what some of you folks consider as minimum expectations for wood cut for guitar builders. Do you consider it to be 'correct' to have both side and back panels the same thickness, surface sanded both sides, uniform thickness throughout? Or do you consider it acceptable to get sets where the thickness will vary greatly, only one face of a back set or side set will be sanded with the other three faces rough off the saw? Depending on the vendor, I seem to get the gamut. Some vendors wood requires a lot more processing than others. What are your thoughts?
Author:  DennisK [ Sat Dec 14, 2013 6:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 'Expectations' from wood vendors...
Doesn't matter as long as it's good after I thin it down.
Author:  bluescreek [ Sat Dec 14, 2013 6:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 'Expectations' from wood vendors...
you are buying wood from most vendors , it is expected that the buyer does the processing. some vendors will offer that service. When I buy I don't expect it to be processed for building. We all have different ideas on what it should be
Author:  ZekeM [ Sat Dec 14, 2013 6:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 'Expectations' from wood vendors...
I agree that you get many different things depending on the vendor. But personally I'm with Dennis. I'm going to be thinning and shaping it anyhow so I don't really care what the vendor does, so long as I have a good piece once I'm done with it. That said some woods, figured for example, would be more desirable to a customer if at least one side was sanded smooth to show off the grain. But once again that's a vendor preference and I'm going to buy what looks good and fits my purpose.
Author:  Chris Pile [ Sat Dec 14, 2013 7:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 'Expectations' from wood vendors...
I just think it would be nice if suppliers offered solidbody sized woods.
Mr. Hix - I'm talking to you.

I'd love to build a solidbody from Leopardwood, or other exotic.
Maybe there's not enough markup for you, but there IS a market.
Author:  Robbie_McD [ Sat Dec 14, 2013 7:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 'Expectations' from wood vendors...
I have a gripe about rough tops....
Tops so rough the supplier cannot possibly have graded it correctly.
Then, after thicknessing, finding a sap pocket or branch shadow in the middle of the lower bout that makes it....scrap....or center strips for the back plates.....
Author:  James Ringelspaugh [ Sat Dec 14, 2013 8:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 'Expectations' from wood vendors...
I try to plane or thickness sand every face of the boards I sell for a few reasons:

1. It makes it a lot easier to get really good detailed photographs so folks can see exactly what they're getting
2. Little flaws - like small compression fractures that are common in certain species - can be virtually invisible in rough boards... sanding/planing makes it easy to spot them. I reject a lot more boards but customers don't get surprises and returns are minimized so everyone comes out ahead in the end.
3. With a good setup it takes no more than 5-10 minutes to do even for difficult woods. It seems time well spent to me.
Author:  dzsmith [ Sat Dec 14, 2013 9:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 'Expectations' from wood vendors...
I just received a redwood and two Maple billets from Gobywalnut in Oregon for some solid body tops.
The wood looked just like the photos, flaws were pointed out, dimensions were accurate, shipping was reasonable, and the billets were only $40-$50 each.
I am quite pleased with the purchase. Their representations of the billets were spot on.

I ordered some thin stock bundles from another vendor. The pieces were obviously the waste pieces left over from cleaning up the timbers. About half was not usable.
Author:  Mike Baker [ Sat Dec 14, 2013 9:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 'Expectations' from wood vendors...
The only reason I buy from instrument vendors is because I don't have thickness sanders, bandsaw, etc.
That's also why I pay the price they're asking. If not, I'll go to my local hardwood dealer, process the rough wood myself, and save some cash. For me, things like fretboard blanks I want nice and flat and square on all sides. If the vendor I buy from doesn't provide that, I find one that does.
Author:  Blain [ Sat Dec 14, 2013 11:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 'Expectations' from wood vendors...
I've only sent back one set. The side pieces were different thicknesses, but that's not why I sent it back.
I sent it back because the thickness of one of the sides was well below what I would have thinned it to as a final measurement.
The other side was very thick.
Someone clearly messed up, but the vendor took it back no problem and replaced it.
Even paid me back for the return shipping, so I was happy.
Author:  Shaw [ Sun Dec 15, 2013 12:27 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 'Expectations' from wood vendors...
When I buy wood I expect it to be rough sawn unless it specified that its not. Many offer finish sanding but I have a sander so I prefer to do it myself.
Author:  the Padma [ Sun Dec 15, 2013 3:56 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 'Expectations' from wood vendors...
Robbie_McD wrote:
I have a gripe about rough tops....
Tops so rough the supplier cannot possibly have graded it correctly.
Then, after thicknessing, finding a sap pocket or branch shadow in the middle of the lower bout that makes it....scrap....or center strips for the back plates.....


Well Robbie,

Billets are frowed or split from rounds. Right then and there you can tell exactly what the grade is as you have a nice clear faces on that billet to look at. The billets are then sliced off into plates leaving rough surfaces which may make it difficult for the inexperienced to grade, but not impossible. It is the billets that are graded and not the individual plates by the large commercial sawyers.

Regarding sap pockets...when you figure out how to see inside the box of chocolates without open it, please, let us all know. laughing6-hehe
Author:  meddlingfool [ Sun Dec 15, 2013 4:02 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 'Expectations' from wood vendors...
Yes, well...

Life is like a box of chocolates, wot?
Author:  Clay S. [ Sun Dec 15, 2013 7:06 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 'Expectations' from wood vendors...
"Regarding sap pockets...when you figure out how to see inside the box of chocolates without open it, please, let us all know"

A light table or a bright light placed behind the soundboard can show some internal defects if the plates are of a reasonable thickness. This can help decide which edge to join or what size instrument to build to avoid the defects.

My expectations vary with the price. If I pay a premium, I expect things to be of premium quality, and to not have to work around defects. However I often buy cosmetically "lower grade" materials and cut out the defects. Some things can't be worked around (severe runout), but someone selling wood for soundboards should know how to avoid them. Hidden defects I will try to discover before things go too far.
I bought some nice 3A tops that had some irregular edges and odd thicknesses, but when they were brought down to final dimensions I was quite happy with them. If I was a professional shop the extra time I spent may have offset the initial savings (but I work pretty cheap <g>).
Author:  emoney [ Sun Dec 15, 2013 7:17 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 'Expectations' from wood vendors...
For me, as long as I know in what state of prep the wood's in, I'm happy. If I buy something advertising as "surfaced all 4 sides" then that's what I expect. Same goes for the opposite, as in a billet. I've yet to purchase wood that didn't come as advertised, but I can see how it could happen I suppose. So far, I've been lucky and usually the seller has "over-delivered".
Author:  B. Howard [ Sun Dec 15, 2013 10:02 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 'Expectations' from wood vendors...
I am much more interested in the quality of the wood itself than its state of process. I will process every side of the wood to suit my needs as i build anyway.
Author:  meddlingfool [ Sun Dec 15, 2013 1:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 'Expectations' from wood vendors...
I guess LMI just spoils me. Perfectly flat, sanded all four sides, even thickness throughout, with most of the rough work taken care of....
Author:  the Padma [ Sun Dec 15, 2013 3:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 'Expectations' from wood vendors...
Clay S. wrote:
"Regarding sap pockets...when you figure out how to see inside the box of chocolates without open it, please, let us all know"

A light table or a bright light placed behind the soundboard can show some internal defects if the plates are of a reasonable thickness. This can help decide which edge to join or what size instrument to build to avoid the defects.

.



Yell gee ya Clay, me being an archtop builder,me fogotts that you flat toppers use the light bulb.

now if me could find an Xray machine real cheap... laughing6-hehe


@meddlingfool: ya dude box of chocolates...see from the moment me yank on the chain saw till me actually carving billets....usually about 5years....me really has no idea whats gonna be inside....so ya...box of chocolates. Down load Forest Gump.
Author:  Mike Baker [ Sun Dec 15, 2013 6:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 'Expectations' from wood vendors...
About a 1,000,000 candle power spotlight outta do it. laughing6-hehe
Author:  WaddyThomson [ Mon Dec 16, 2013 12:15 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 'Expectations' from wood vendors...
Some builders prefer the rough cut because it allows them to better see the length of the fibers in the wood - particularly Spruce.
Author:  Pmaj7 [ Mon Dec 16, 2013 12:50 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 'Expectations' from wood vendors...
It's nice to get the sides a little thinner, if they we're sanded after they were good and dry.
Author:  DannyV [ Mon Dec 16, 2013 12:53 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 'Expectations' from wood vendors...
Filippo Morelli wrote:
Padma just get brighter light bulbs for those archtops :-)

Filippo

There should be a "OK, that's funny" button.
Author:  meddlingfool [ Mon Dec 16, 2013 2:26 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 'Expectations' from wood vendors...
Well for example...

If you buy a set from LMI, it comes with the sides and back surfaced both sides, uniform thickness between bookmatches, and dead flat, and reasonably thinned already (don't know their measurements offhand, but let's say .130-.150). LMI deals with guitar builders only.

Another vendor will send a set where one panel is .120 and the other .250, and warped, or with sides that vary in thickness from target dimension to well above, so you have to try to nurse the piece into useable shape. Only one side of a panel sanded, the other with deep planer or sander marks. Nothing wrong with the wood itself, but much more futzing about to bring it in line. A company that may sell wood for a variety of purposes, not just guitars.

I guess I'm just trying to get a sense of what most of us are used to seeing when you buy wood specifically for making guitars. I know for myself that it makes me lean towards vendors that supply wood that is easier to process.

So, 'a lot more processing' means extra runs through the drum sander, having to repeatedly measure with calipers to see if one panel is approaching the thickness of the next so you can run them through the sander at the same setting and so on and so forth. All the shoe that drives ya batty when you really need to get things done. And it makes me wonder if vendors that supply a number of different purposes for wood know how to process wood for us. That's all, ya know?
Author:  DennisK [ Mon Dec 16, 2013 3:22 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 'Expectations' from wood vendors...
meddlingfool wrote:
Another vendor will send a set where one panel is .120 and the other .250, and warped, or with sides that vary in thickness from target dimension to well above, so you have to try to nurse the piece into useable shape. Only one side of a panel sanded, the other with deep planer or sander marks. Nothing wrong with the wood itself, but much more futzing about to bring it in line. A company that may sell wood for a variety of purposes, not just guitars.

Ok, I guess I should amend my earlier post with some common sense :) .250" is definitely excessive, especially for hardwoods. And warped is never a good sign.

But if I get two slices about 3/16" with fresh-off-the-bandsaw surfaces, I'm pretty happy. And I don't mind if if one tapers down toward 1/8" at one edge or whatever. It's certainly nice to have backs pre-sanded to 1/8", and sides to .100", but the bandsawing is the only part that I really don't want to do myself. If dealing with a little cleanup knocks a few bucks off the price, I'll take it.

Another point is that gouges in the show face of bookmatched sets are a bad thing. Particularly rift/flat sawn backs, because the grain patterns change significantly as you thin them down... so the less wood gets removed in the sawing and surfacing process, the better.

I wouldn't expect general lumber suppliers to meet luthier standards. That's why luthier suppliers can charge so much... because it requires skill and attention that's not necessary for your average furniture/construction lumber.

Binding strips are another story, though. If I'm paying several dollars for a tiny strip of wood, I expect it to be straight grained and a consistent .08" or so thick, with only a light scraping necessary to remove sanding scratches, if anything.
Author:  meddlingfool [ Mon Dec 16, 2013 8:39 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 'Expectations' from wood vendors...
Fair enough...
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