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| ABS vs PVC binding material https://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=42153 |
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| Author: | Rob Flindall [ Mon Dec 09, 2013 11:40 pm ] |
| Post subject: | ABS vs PVC binding material |
Every time I place an order with Stew Mac for plastic binding, I swear under my breath as I press the purchase button - come on, $4.50+ is ludicrous for a small piece of plastic 65" long. I've been scouring the internet, including ebay for alternatives and I keep coming across both ABS and PVC binding material. I've tried doing some research on both and I keep coming up with nothing. Can anyone advise if there are pluses or minuses to using each? Stew Mac sells ABS binding, but I see a lot of PVC binding from China that is extremely cheap, or should I say, appropriately priced for such a small piece of plastic. I really appreciate any input. I'm holding off purchasing some large quantities until I find out more. |
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| Author: | emoney [ Tue Dec 10, 2013 6:19 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: ABS vs PVC binding material |
The ABS stuff, which can be had on Ebay from some sellers much cheaper, will melt in Acetone to make "binding glue". I'm not sure the PVC stuff will. |
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| Author: | Alexandru Marian [ Tue Dec 10, 2013 6:56 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: ABS vs PVC binding material |
How about maple? |
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| Author: | ZekeM [ Tue Dec 10, 2013 7:43 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: ABS vs PVC binding material |
I've never understood the desire to use plastic binding on a custom built guitar. To me it really ruins the look of an otherwise nice guitar. Sure I understand factory built guitars get it because it's cheap and easy to use, but even then I hate the look of the stuff. Moral of the story, use wood binding! |
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| Author: | Goodin [ Tue Dec 10, 2013 8:44 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: ABS vs PVC binding material |
Have you checked out LMI? Their ABS binding is $2.50-3.50. They have many options for plastic/celluloid binding. For the naysayers of plastic. Check out this Circa...I think it looks great. Black plastic looks just like ebony under a gloss finish. Attachment: Slopeendpinbig (Medium).jpg
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| Author: | ZekeM [ Tue Dec 10, 2013 9:07 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: ABS vs PVC binding material |
I can understand the use I tortoid, or ivoroid due to the restrictions and moral dilemmas surrounding using real tortoise or ivory. To me though I've just never understood the use of white plastic or black plastic. Just a preference I guess but I'm not a fan. Especially of the white plastic. I've always been that way though. Even on a high end factory guitar when I see a stark white plastic binding it just looks cheap and turns me off. I just don't get why anyone would choose to have that on a custom built instrument. But to each his own I guess. |
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| Author: | Rob Flindall [ Tue Dec 10, 2013 9:39 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: ABS vs PVC binding material |
Thanks for the input guys. I should have included purfling material as well in my initial question. For the most part I've been using wood binding with plastic purfling. Is there a preference between the two types of plastics and are there any adhesion problems if you put both ABS and PVC in the same purfling? (I use CA glue for my bindings and purflings for the most part). |
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| Author: | klooker [ Tue Dec 10, 2013 10:18 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: ABS vs PVC binding material |
Todd Stock wrote: Ivoroid or tortoid from Guitarmakers Connection is available, along with end graft and heel caps... Do they have Ivoroid or Tortoise now? Last time I tried to order some they said they weren't offering it anymore. Kevin Looker |
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| Author: | Clay S. [ Tue Dec 10, 2013 11:16 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: ABS vs PVC binding material |
You can buy PVC edgebanding (for cabinet doors) in 2 or 3mm thicknesses about 1 inch wide in 200 ft rolls. Last time I bought some it was about $70 a roll. I cut it to width on with a table saw. You can get a lot of edge binding out of one roll so pick a shade that you really like. There are a lot of "whites" available as well as thousands of colors. To me ebony binding looks like black plastic, and black plastic iseasier to work with and gives a "tougher" edge. ABS is also sold for edgebanding. |
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| Author: | Greg B [ Tue Dec 10, 2013 12:41 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: ABS vs PVC binding material |
PVC is a little softer and more flexible, typically, than ABS. Shellac doesn't stick well to PVC, though this can be overcome. The stuff LMI sells makes really bright white/black purflings. It's always possible to buy larger sheets of material from plastic suppliers, and resaw and process them yourself. I prefer plastic bindings on steel strings, usually. Wood looks too hippy dippy. 
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| Author: | tbluthier [ Wed Dec 11, 2013 11:21 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: ABS vs PVC binding material |
Well, no one else has said it so, I will. Repairing binding is a pain in the hind end unless the binding is a plastic that can be dissolved with a chemical. Fancy wood binding do look beautiful and I'm sure that is part of their purpose however, another part of their purpose is to protect the wood at the edges of the instrument from damage. It stands to reason that most of the damage caused by bumps and dings occurs at the edges of the instrument and the plastic binding is there to take the beating. Celluloid is really easy to repair. ABS is pretty easy too. I've used chopped up Lego bricks dissolved in acetone to fix a few. Having said that, I'm pretty-much a repairman and I tend to look at things from that stand-point. Curly maple binding looks fantastic to my eyes... |
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| Author: | fingerstyle1978 [ Wed Dec 11, 2013 11:43 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: ABS vs PVC binding material |
I also only use wood binding. It's cheap and you can make it yourself. But that's just a personal preference. I'll tell you what though, Some flimsy plastic might have been the better way to go judging from my last binding job! lol. I'm still dealing with that mess, but then again I'm an amateur with zero skill 
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| Author: | Ken McKay [ Thu Dec 12, 2013 7:02 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: ABS vs PVC binding material |
You can get ABS from Shellex in Germany. It is perfect dimension so little work goes into binding a guitar. It is a little peachy in color for my liking though. I have another supplier in Germany who I got a large roll from but need to thin it for use. I use a hand plane jig to thin it and it is a PIA but reliable. I have never had luck with a router jig. I just got some of the strips of ABS ivory color from China and it is fine, although over sized. PM me if you need more info. |
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| Author: | Tai Fu [ Fri Dec 13, 2013 1:04 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: ABS vs PVC binding material |
They got some decent celluloid from China... say what you will but they still make good celluloid that I doubt is different from the Italian stuff. |
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| Author: | the Padma [ Fri Dec 13, 2013 1:25 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: ABS vs PVC binding material |
 ?adma, him being a Mr. Natural kinda dudedon't gotts much to say about ABS, PVC or chopped up leggos other than  Wood is cheap enough, easy to do a run of banding and purfelling and well gee virtually the whole instrument. How is that possible? 
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| Author: | Tai Fu [ Fri Dec 13, 2013 1:28 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: ABS vs PVC binding material |
Just try and repair a wood binding... it's impossible to make it seamless unless you do them completely over. |
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| Author: | the Padma [ Fri Dec 13, 2013 3:03 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: ABS vs PVC binding material |
Well Tai... your absolutely right thats one of the reasons me don't do no stinkin repair work no more, never again. But that aside...if the client grumbles about the cost, just send them to that cheap guitar place...ebay...they smash it up...is simple, they can buy a new one. Plastic was invented for the peoples who wanted it all now, immediately, in every colour and dirt cheap, dang the economy and the environment. So now what? Eh? See Tai, everything has its plus and minus, its good side and its bad, so to it is with loofering...and ones attitude towards it. blessings |
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| Author: | Brad Goodman [ Fri Dec 13, 2013 10:35 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: ABS vs PVC binding material |
Todd Stock wrote: Ivoroid or tortoid from Guitarmakers Connection is available, along with end graft and heel caps. They also have Bolteron in black and white, which is the stark white stuff Martin and Taylor use for binding. If intent on a white binding, maybe ivoroid with fiber/maple...glues with plastics glues or just wipe the ivoroid or tortoid with acetone and glue with LMI white or Titebond. As Filippo mentioned, holly is very nice, and looks like the old ivory-bound Martins from anything more than a few inches. Martin and Gibson produced hundreds of thousands of ivoroid, tortoid, or black/white cellulose nitrate bound guitars...these guitars still define 'vintage' to many players. For canonical Martin or Gibson guitars, ivoroid, tortoid, etc. are common choices by top builders. I disagree with the notion that custom guitars need wood binding - it's part of the look that some builders shoot for, but I prefer to go with binding that looks and feels appropriate to the project, versus what happens to be in vogue at the time of construction. Bottom line? Bind with what you want to bind in - you'll be in good company. I've done plastic and wood, and find ivoroid and white cellulose nitrate to be as much work to get a nice binding job as curly maple, holy, birdseye, or other light color woods. Ebonies - any of them - and black plastic are quite easy. Tortoid seems about as tough as lighter rosewoods like coco or king wood. Pretty sure Mario said essentially the same thing - given his market, he often binds in cellulose nitrate, and as with most things in luthiery, notes challenges unique to working in ivoroid or tortoid. Todd is right on in my opinion. When I make my Stella "clones" I us ivoroid for the binding it has the right "vibe" to it, just wouldn't look right with wood-and I love wood binding! The same goes for old style archtops- I use 8 line black/white ABS purfling. If you are looking to get cheap binding,as someone said buy it in sheets and cut it up on the table saw. I used to buy it from a company called leathertone, but I think they aren't around anymore-they used the sheets for engraved signs. |
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