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PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 8:36 pm 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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I installed a pickup in a friends Martin. Sunburst with that synthetic FB. Not sure of the model. Noticed something that surprised me. The neck and end blocks did not join to the top or back. They were tapered at an angle near those surfaces. Why did Martin do this? Is there a benefit? Anyone here doing that?

Mike

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 8:57 pm 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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I do that, but only on the top's surface of the tailblock...


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 9:24 pm 
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There is no functional advantage to a larger bonding area than what is provided by the lining around the rest of the rim. The adhesive bond is stronger than the wood, and even one square inch of bonding area is more than sufficient.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 9:26 pm 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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Interesting. This model was not joined on any block surface. Maybe a manufacturing speed up? Why do u do that? Keep the top looser? Considering the torsional forces near the neck block, this would seem to be a bad idea there.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 9:46 pm 
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Cocobolo
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There should be a small bonding surface that protrudes 1/2" to 1" or so in from the sides (less on the end block.) Otherwise that could definitely be a problem.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 11:16 pm 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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hugh.evans wrote:
There should be a small bonding surface that protrudes 1/2" to 1" or so in from the sides (less on the end block.) Otherwise that could definitely be a problem.


None that I could see.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2013 2:51 am 
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These have the Martin mortise and tenon neck joint. There is a contact area on the top neck block but the back portion is angled and looks like there is not contact at all but it does slightly. The tail block is angled on top and back and make a minimal contact area. It is around the same area as the lining....Mike

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2013 3:09 am 
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so what is the purpose of the wood thats just hanging out in free space? counterweight? stock for a bolt to hang on to?


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2013 12:30 pm 
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Cocobolo
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It has several square inches of inches of bonding surfaces between the sides and top, which provides more strength than the instrument will need. Aside from that, it is indeed necessary for the mortise and tenon bolt on system to work. Neither the wood or adhesive are impressed by 160 to 180 lbs of string tension.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2013 1:44 pm 
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I repaired a bass that was built that way. Looked like it took a minor fall backward and the neck hit a table. The back popped off the neck block. A small gluing surface may hold string tension just fine but not an impact.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2013 6:38 pm 
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Interesting that none of the usual Martin heavyweights have weighed in on this one....

The subject came up recently in a discussion I had with luthiers that do a lot more repair work than I do. The view was that this was the final sign that Martin had forgotten how to design guitars and that corner-cutting (literally) was more important to them than quality construction. This was based on the number of repairs coming through for detached neck blocks and "moved" necks.

Sure, in theory there might be enough glue area to take the stress, (gluing footprint is the same as the linings), but in practice there isn't. Why did Martin do it? The best we could come up with was that it avoided "dimples" in the back over the blocks through not having the back fitted properly and also saved a bit of fitting time. Is anyone else doing it? We couldn't think of anyone.

Why wouldn't we do it? Well, for one thing, a full joint spreads the loading over a much greater area, keeping the stress down and so there is much less of a tendency for things to creep, both the wood in the panels and the glue itself. For another, it turns what was an "encastre" (built-in) joint which has intrinsic moment constraint into an approximation of a pinned joint because of the low gluing area and the stress concentration it puts into the adjacent thin panels. In very rough terms, you could expect a fully glued joint to be ~4 times more resistant to deflection. And finally, given the small amount of extra effort required to get it right, why wouldn't you?

It would be interesting to know if Martin still does this.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 3:08 am 
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I believe Martin doesn't do it this way anymore with their pricier instruments. I think they are strictly dovetail joints. I think they are still doing it on the Mexican made Martins and other lower price cheaper models. But don't take my word on that...Mike

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 7:18 am 
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This is likely a Martin "15" series with the genuine, imitation, stinkin plastic fretboard....

Beveling the tail block away from the top is a very common practice and many, many builders do this. There is still contact area as others have suggested but it need be no greater than the contact area of the kerfed linings and will be fine.

The intended purpose of this technique is indeed to free up the top a bit more and not unlike the practice of thinning the edges of the top around the perimeter as many of us do too and Taylor does with a rabbit of sorts or stepped thickness around the perimeter.

These are not the most responsive guitars by any means and beveling the tail block is one way to loosen up the top in that region to encourage more free surface area of the top. The tail block thickness that one wondered about when the entire tail block is not bonded to the top is indeed for end pin and/or end jack support and of course the tail block also serves the structural purposes as part of the box and rim.

These 15's have this very poor neck joint design where it's a glued mortice and tenon where one blot is used to hold everything in place until the glue dries. The glued mortice and tenon commonly fails and the heel will show a slight gap, the action rises, and it's time for a visit to an authorized Martin repair center, of which we have been one for decades..., to have the neck reset. That process is very easy and not much more than cranking the single bolt but the glued mortice and tenon is likely one of the worst neck joints that I am aware of. Check for a gap in the heel as these commonly come loose and I have personally fixed more of these than I can count...

On occasion when the instrument was not under warranty, perhaps purchased second hand, when I get these in I convert them to a double bolt system and then they hold up fine over time.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 9:39 am 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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the fretboard isn't plastic but made of resin and wood fiber they stopped using mycarta years ago. Richlite is the trade name and is not all that bad. Better get used to using different material , the tree huggers wanna put us out of business LOL

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 10:10 am 
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Old Growth Brazilian Rosewood
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Dimple avoidance is certainly a motivation for some to bevel the tail block. But... I can't say what someone else's motivation may be unless they say so themselves.

I took the liberty to Google "Beveling the tail block" and the results of the search support two possible, for now, conclusions that others "may" have.

In this link the motivation is stated as "freeing up the top." http://www.designofaclassicalguitar.com/sides.php

Here is another link where the motivation is stated as dimple avoidance: http://theunofficialmartinguitarforum.yuku.com/topic/113178#.UUnJar_4Y18

In the link above Arnoldgte is possibly John Arnold who says in his post that he started beveling the tail block about 10 years ago to avoid the dreaded dimple.

Also in this thread/link further down is one of Mario P's superb guitars with an inside the box view. Mario does not say why he bevels but he clearly does and maybe he will weigh-in to say why?

I also know that beveling the tail block is taught in some of the schools and in at least one case part or all of the reason is again freeing up the top. Bryan Gallop teaches this practice and does it himself with his world-class instruments. One student of the Gallop school who turned me on to the idea of beveling the tail block also told me that the intention was to free up the top additionally.

DIfferent strokes for different folks in terms of motivation and beliefs... As for me I find myself to be less certain of most things these days - the more that I have learned the more that I am exposed to the ideas and thinking of others which I greatly welcome and always will. So my position on "why" this may be done is agnostic but certainly open to the arguments and assertions of others. Speaking of which I would love to hear in this thread from those with direct experience in this method and why they do as they do. Mario?

Regarding the integrity of the box when the tail block is beveled I have yet to see a guitar with a beveled tail block lose it's bond to the tail block because of the smaller gluing area. I've seen and repaired instruments where the tail block has come loose completely or partially which is not all that uncommon after an impact.

Personally and again I'm less certain as to why some or many folks may bevel the tail block. I started doing it about 5 guitars ago for the purposes of additionally freeing up the top. Dimple avoidance, which was also on my radar at the time, is a welcome thing too but again as to why it may have been done by Martin perhaps only the engineers at Martin know for sure.

Regarding the plastic fret boards - plastic, smastic it's NOT wood!!! :D Regarding tree huggers as one who has personally never been intimate with a tree... I do love trees and understand the need to keep the "lungs" of our planet working as well for all things as possible. Perhaps the use of non-wood in guitars has nothing to do with tree huggers but is more likely a matter of economics in a lower-end line of production instruments.

But again it's above my pay grade and I have no shame in saying that I don't know why Martin does not use real wood on this line of guitars. I'll add that you should have seen my face the first time that I put a fret board conditioner on one of these synthetic fret boards.... It beaded up.... :D There is a three letter expression that we often see on forums, mostly elsewhere..., that was exactly what I said out loud....

Hope you're doing well too John.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 10:38 am 
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It's the neck block that's the problem, not the heel block.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 10:50 am 
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Hi Kent!!! How so is the neck block the problem? Great to see you here too!


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 11:01 am 
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Hi Hesh,

As I said in my first post, it's not enough glue surface if there is even a small impact. The back pops off the block.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 11:10 am 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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Well Hesh when you look at the amount of wood it takes Martin on a daily bases and with the restrictions placed on them by LACEY CITIES and other environmental groups it is not as easy to procure the material when you make say 12 guitars a year and 350 a day. there is also the price point of imports .
I do agree a nice piece of Ebony is great to use. Glad to see you back Hesh.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 1:30 pm 
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Old Growth Brazilian Rosewood
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Sure John CITES and Lacey are restrictive and certainly do complicate the lives of those of us who have requirements for some of the listed materials and it's also pretty clear to me that Lutherie in general "may" have been caught in a net... so-to-speak where the real targets of over harvesting are or should be others and other industries. It's unfortunate, complicated, pricy, and a nightmare to navigate.

On the other hand I tend to take a view inspired by native Americans in that I "cherish" many of these exotic and rare woods and feel very fortunate to have them available even if it means jumping through hoops, export/import restrictions, and more. Many of the Luthiers whom I know personally feel similar and share my view that our craft/trade greatly benefits from the bounty of our earth and as such have great respect for these wonderful woods. I'm sure you do too my friend and I am by no means arguing with you but instead simply suggesting a different point of view.

CITES and Lacey were a reality from the very first day that I ever had the opportunity to handle, tap, work, craft, smell say BRW. Regardless this is the business that I decided to be in and as such the realities of our day, fair or not, are something that I have to deal with. The same in my view holds true for Gibson, Martin, Taylor and everyone else. This is the business that they decided to be in and that to me means that in this decision, just like any other business decision, one has to simply roll with the punches and do the very best that we may anyway. Besides from the very first day that I was interested in Lutherie many of the ones here before either of us knew this was coming and had already squirreled away what they could for such eventualities.

Interestingly enough many of the Luthiers that I know also consider themselves to be environmentalists at the very least to the degree of having great reverence and respect for these very fine and now rare materials that we covet and at times seek out. It's the hand that feeds us so-to-speak, the earth and at the risk of sounding like a space cadet... :D I'm on board with this respect and point of view too. But that's another discussion, not something that I believe I can add any actual value to for anyone with my humble opinion and not something that from experience I personally wish to engage in.

I've read the perspectives here, know the Gibson story and to each their own. But for me I have far too much respect for some of these endangered woods that make wonderful guitars to not understand in advance that something had to change or some day our choices would be limited even further.

Sorry to Mike, did not mean to high-jack his thread and get into treaties and regulation. Back to dimples and freeing up the top... :D


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 5:31 pm 
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Kent Chasson wrote:
It's the neck block that's the problem, not the heel block.

Just to be clear:
Trevor Gore wrote:
This was based on the number of repairs coming through for detached neck blocks and "moved" necks.

Definitely the neck blocks that are the problem. The guys I was talking with didn't know of any other maker who undercut the bottom of the neck block. It just seemed like a really dumb move, especially when you consider that some makers extend their C shaped neck blocks as far as the first back brace in the name of stability.

Regarding the tail block, at least one world renowned text(!) advocates tapering the tail block to the width of the linings. The reason: no more than not having an unnecessary discontinuity in the width of the glue line around the linings. Does it avoid dimples in the back over the tail block? I don't know. I've never had dimples in the back, but I've never done it any other way. Just tapering the tailblock to the lining width at the top, of itself, isn't enough to prevent top dimples. There's a variety of other measures you can take to avoid those, though. Just make the linings "look" continuous across the block.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 7:05 pm 
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I seriously doubt they would make such a change for purely cosmetic reasons. With respect to installation of the neck and end blocks, that entire operation is accomplished using fixtures and takes less than 5 minutes for an experienced worker to complete. My personal suspicion as to any increase in failures using this design is that all of Martin's bolt-on mortise and tenon neck guitars are from the lower end of their product line. As a result they make use of lower grade wood that could be somewhat more prone to failure, but if it proves to be a truly inferior practice they would be quick to modify their process. This is the same company that fought a battle in court in order to maintain their practice of requiring cases for all of their guitars. I personally witnessed the destruction of complete and nearly complete instruments due to flaws that would qualify them as factory seconds... and after you've seen D-45s cut up on a band saw and broken apart to prevent re-assembly, it becomes much harder to believe they would bother shipping anything deemed inferior.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 8:39 pm 
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Hi Trevor! Your comment got me thinking about a conversation that I had this morning with a relatively new builder who's first and only guitar is so very well built and finished that I would love to have it! And the very last thing that I need is yet another guitar to be tripping over. :D

When I brought up the idea of tapering the tail block to either free up the top or avoid the dreaded dimple he suggested creating a ledge in the tail block so that the linings and block are continuous as you mentioned. Beyond the ledge or more specifically below the ledge the tail block then tapers away from the top and/or back if you want to do this to the back as well. Because it's not a gradual taper and a ledge instead the possibility of a buzz where the ledge begins to contact the top is not present. I like this idea and it also provides for the thickness that we deem optimal in a tail block for structural integrity and perhaps pick-up installation with some meat to secure the input jack to while at the same time makes the linings look continuous to the lower bout of the top and/or back. In other words it's a slightly stepped tail block.

I'd be interested to hear your and anyone else's take on this idea. I also think that for a new builder it's some pretty good thinking and not just a cookie cutter approach to assembling a model airplane kit! I'll be happy to name this new builder after I see how his idea is received... :o :D

Regarding the glued mortice and tenon it's been glue failures that I've seen too, many, many of them. It's pop the wooden plate hiding the single bolt, crank (with care....) the bolt tight again, clean off the double stick tape from the neck block and underside of the plate, and position and reinstall the plate with a stick and a good viewing angle. Not difficult to deal with but I also have to wonder if this glued mortice and tenon was a pretty poor idea to begin with. SInce there is no mechanical join as with a dovetail the joint relies first on the glue when the joint is in sheer the entire time and then, when the glue fails, and it will and does.... the bolt is the only thing holding the neck on.... Don't they call the single bolt on the top of the main shaft of helicopters a "Jesus bolt" in so much as if it comes off someone is in for a big and ugly surprise?

Since we are talking about the 15 series with this glued mortice and tenon we have noticed top cracks too that are pretty common and don't respond well to rehumidification. By not responding well what I mean is when we bag-em and tag-em (put them in a Hefty bag... for a couple of days with a wet sponge) the cracks may not close... This is common on cracks that have been open for a long time and didn't just happen.

Anyway since we talk about this stuff non-stop unless a pretty girl passes by... :D we have a theory about why this may be happening and it may correspond with the idea of lesser materials utilized on the lower end models.

When one is in the business of manufacturing tens of thousands of guitars annually one also has to be in the purchasing wood business AND forecasting the annual sales of various models some years from now. The wood has to season or it's a warranty claim waiting to happen.

Recently in our history we were in the great recession where many musical instrument manufacturers and music store went teats up.... Disposable income was not what it had once been and people cut back on nonessential big ticket purchases. In a down economy that lingers over perhaps four years... how does a purchasing agent for a guitar manufacturer forecast and buy appropriate quantities of wood for use 3 - 5 years down the road. In hard times when a company is struggling to survive using your working capital for "futures" with out an immediate and survival related benefit may have been hard to do. I say "may" because I clearly am not a fly on the wall of the purchasing department at Martin, Fender, etc.

Taking it a step further if the needed production levels of wood for future use was not squirreled away might some guitars these days be built out of green wood? If so what we would see is more cracks than usual, more in certain models, and cracks that won't close with humidification alone. And this is exactly what we are seeing.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 19, 2013 4:44 am 
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I just got a Matin DC Aura in the shop for a crack in the top. I noticed the neck had a gap at the heel big enough to put 2 business cards in. I popped off the wood covering the screw and was suprised to see a phillips head. I replaced it with one I could tighten with an allen wrench. I seems to me that Martin needs to use more glue if they are not depending on the bolt. I also wonder if the wood in the block is compressing or shrinking over time. This doesn't look like a low end instrument other then the neck joint. Any toughts?


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 19, 2013 7:54 am 
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" I also wonder if the wood in the block is compressing or shrinking over time."

As a newbie, this was what I was wondering too. Anyone have another explanation for the dimple?

Also, if the block is not to be attached, are they overlarge? Why have all that wood hanging around? I am having a tough time visualizing . A drawing would help.


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