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Why do most braz rosewood sets look muddy and indistinct?
https://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=41590		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  Linus [ Sun Oct 06, 2013 10:47 am ]
Post subject:  Why do most braz rosewood sets look muddy and indistinct?
I have noticed that a lot of brazilian rosewood sets currently available for sale (ebay and classifieds) look nothing like the classic examples of old brazilian rosewood.

I have an old Washburn parlor guitar that has the typical look, striated, ribbons of different color, blacks/browns/reds/golds.

Image

But most sets I see listed are muddy and indistinct looking. They are often VERY dark and have indistinct swirls of color. Why is this? Are they flat sawn instead of quarter sawn? Stump wood? I don't want to list an example and bad mouth any particular set currently for sale but I think you'll have seen many examples of what I'm talking about.

I'm new to all of this and trying to figure it out.
Author:  bluescreek [ Sun Oct 06, 2013 11:03 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Why do most braz rosewood sets look muddy and indistinct
on ebay a lot of the Brazilian is not true Dalbergia Nigra . Much is kingwood , and Honduran. Also most (pre cities) is not but wood smuggled in. Most people buying this off ebay are beginners and the sellers know that.
Author:  Tony_in_NYC [ Sun Oct 06, 2013 11:16 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Why do most braz rosewood sets look muddy and indistinct
Also, some woods look bad after they come off off of a band saw and have not been sanded. Ziricote is one that comes to mind. Looks awful sometimes until it is sanded.
The BRW on ebay that really is BRW is stump wood and less desirable than the wood from higher up on the trunk. Other BRW on ebay is the stuff that nobody wanted to pay for years ago and salvaged wood from old beams, furniture, etc. It is probably not quartered either.
Author:  Tom West [ Sun Oct 06, 2013 1:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Why do most braz rosewood sets look muddy and indistinct
Well picked over...............???
Tom
Author:  mqbernardo [ Sun Oct 06, 2013 4:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Why do most braz rosewood sets look muddy and indistinct
because folks usually don´t want to sell the good sets.
Author:  B. Howard [ Sun Oct 06, 2013 4:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Why do most braz rosewood sets look muddy and indistinct
Most of what you do see that is legit is stump wood or other cuts that would have not made the grade years ago.
Author:  nyazzip [ Sun Oct 06, 2013 4:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Why do most braz rosewood sets look muddy and indistinct
Quote:
I have an old Washburn parlor guitar that has the typical look, striated, ribbons of different color, blacks/browns/reds/golds.


not trying to be offensive, but i don't really consider that pic you posted to be a great example of BRW either....on the washburn parlour
my parents have a BRW (veneer) book case they got in the early '60s that is quite stunning...and i see lots of great examples in this forum as well
Author:  Linus [ Sun Oct 06, 2013 5:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Why do most braz rosewood sets look muddy and indistinct
nyazzip wrote:
Quote:
I have an old Washburn parlor guitar that has the typical look, striated, ribbons of different color, blacks/browns/reds/golds.


not trying to be offensive, but i don't really consider that pic you posted to be a great example of BRW either....on the washburn parlour
my parents have a BRW (veneer) book case they got in the early '60s that is quite stunning...and i see lots of great examples in this forum as well



No offense taken. I didn't post my pic as the ultimate example, just a typical example and the handiest pic I had. I do think it illustrates my point.
Author:  the Padma [ Sun Oct 06, 2013 6:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Why do most braz rosewood sets look muddy and indistinct
like Bo Diddly say...

...I look like a farmer but I'm a Lover
Can't judge a book by....


As for the muddy and indistinct look...well you gonna hasta ask the would me
wood think. laughing6-hehe
Author:  David LaPlante [ Mon Oct 07, 2013 8:51 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Why do most braz rosewood sets look muddy and indistinct
I've been watching the quality and availability of Brazilian rosewood slide for over forty years now. It's to the point (and actually has been for some time) that I'm no longer interested in offering it commercially. The quality of what little is available is way below the level of what I want to offer clients, not to mention the CITES entanglements.
Just as a reminder, here is what the good stuff used to look like (on a couple of old Papazian guitars):

Attachment:
PapazianHeazelficteBack.jpg


Attachment:
PapazianFlowerBack.jpg
Author:  James Ringelspaugh [ Mon Oct 07, 2013 10:12 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Why do most braz rosewood sets look muddy and indistinct
Like others have said there's huge variation in BRW and most of what is available today has been picked through over and over again. Simple as that.
Author:  A.Hix [ Mon Oct 07, 2013 2:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Why do most braz rosewood sets look muddy and indistinct
I have some really high grade brw. This came from really old veneer boards. The old school veneer saws could only cut to the last 1" of thickness before hitting the saw carriage, and as a result the veneer mills had what they called "backer boards" left over. I came across an old veneer mill a while back that had a big pile of these brw boards, some of which are 13 FEET long and over 18 inches WIDE! This tells you how old these boards are. These had been there since the 1940s or so. I bought the entire warehouse of wood. As a result I have some of the most incredible old school brw I have seen anywhere, old instruments included. I have only cut a very small portion so far into sets, the best boards I have not cut into yet. If anyone is wanting the good stuff, contact me. It is not cheap by any means, but if anyone wants some special stuff you know where to get some. These pics are of a few sets that I have cut, really beautiful, but like I said, not the best.
Author:  A.Hix [ Mon Oct 07, 2013 3:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Why do most braz rosewood sets look muddy and indistinct
Another set I cut from the old stuff.
Author:  nyazzip [ Mon Oct 07, 2013 3:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Why do most braz rosewood sets look muddy and indistinct
^nice ! ...thats what i'm talkin' bout!
[clap]
Author:  John Arnold [ Mon Oct 07, 2013 5:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Why do most braz rosewood sets look muddy and indistinct
Much of the dull, lackluster BR available over the last 25 years is new growth. The color varies, but much of it is grayish- or chocolate-brown, with little or no black veining. Greens and purples are more common than reds.
Though old growth stumpwood was a major part of the BR supply for about ten years (beginning around 2001), very little of the BR I see offered for sale today is true stumpwood. It seems that the major source these days comes from old beams, and there still is some new growth floating around.
The last legally-cut BR trees were harvested 21 years ago, so it is only a matter of time before it becomes a distant memory.
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