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Neck reset help
https://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=41272		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  absrec [ Fri Aug 30, 2013 7:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Neck reset help
I've decide to take on the task of resetting the neck on my dad's old '81 Takamine acoustic. The top caved in and he said I couldn't possibly make it worse. Ive been told these are set in epoxy and are near impossible to get apart. For better or worse, I'm goin' in.

Today I removed the tongue portion of the FB and was expecting to see some kind of a dovetail joint. Much to my surprise, I saw a Martin style truss rod. Scratching my head, I looked through the sound hole and noticed this little plastic plate. Does this have anything to do with how the neck is set? Can some folks here give me some suggestions as to where to start with this repair?
Author:  jeff crisp [ Fri Aug 30, 2013 10:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Neck reset help
The only Takamine reset I have done turned out to have the heel joined to the body with 5 dowels. A bolt on conversion was what I ended up doing.
Author:  absrec [ Sat Aug 31, 2013 3:22 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Neck reset help
A bolt on neck is a possibility. I wouldn't be surprised if I had to do a bit of sawing before it's all over. Just would like to make it play again.
Author:  Tai Fu [ Sat Aug 31, 2013 12:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Neck reset help
I wouldn't be surprised if it was doweled or epoxy set... Takamines aren't made to last more than 5 years.
Author:  absrec [ Sat Aug 31, 2013 12:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Neck reset help
Tai Fu wrote:
I wouldn't be surprised if it was doweled or epoxy set... Takamines aren't made to last more than 5 years.

So, can you describe what the inside of the joint may possibly look like? Where would the dowels be located? Just trying to get an idea before I go in after it. What might be the procedure? Do I have to remove the portion of the top that is under the tongue as well to see what's going on?

I mainly work on electrics and I figure this could be a good crash course in acoustics. Nothing to lose.
Author:  Tai Fu [ Sat Aug 31, 2013 1:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Neck reset help
No idea, and it probably varies enormously between models or even within models! I can bet Takamines are made by various manufacturers using the Takamine name, so there are no requirement as to how these necks are to be joined. I've seen one cheap guitar where the neck was actually attached to the finish (literally they stuck the neck on while the finish was still wet) - I know this when I attempted to smash it. Some Takamines might have dovetail joint with titebond glue, or with epoxy, or it could be doweled or even just stuck onto wet finish. Nobody knows who makes them and Takamine will not reveal them like it's some State secret or something. Only requirement these brand names place on those manufacturer is the outside, ie. what they advertise.

The only way to find out is remove whatever is on the neck block, and see if there's any bolt. Then you might carefully saw through the neck joint... and make sure there are no hidden screws or nails.

Like I said they really aren't intending these guitars to be reset... they are meant to be thrown away when it becomes unplayable.
Author:  absrec [ Sat Aug 31, 2013 1:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Neck reset help
Tai Fu wrote:
The only way to find out is remove whatever is on the neck block, and see if there's any bolt. Then you might carefully saw through the neck joint... and make sure there are no hidden screws or nails.

Like I said they really aren't intending these guitars to be reset... they are meant to be thrown away when it becomes unplayable.

I get it. I understand it's not worth it from a standpoint of value. It has a lot of sentimental value to my dad. He played it on thousands of gigs and before this, it was always a hell of a guitar despite the Takamine stigma.
Author:  Alex Kleon [ Sat Aug 31, 2013 1:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Neck reset help
I've got a Tak that I bought as a project, and rehabilated. It's a pretty good guitar, if slightly over braced.

Alex
Author:  absrec [ Sat Aug 31, 2013 5:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Neck reset help
I didn't mention this but in case it makes a difference, it's one of the "Lawsuit" models. It has the cursive "Takamine & Co" logo on a rectangular headstock. These were originally supposed to be the Sigma line but for whatever reason Takamine ended up putting them
on the market under their own name. Basically, at a distance, it looks just like a Martin. Don't know if that tells you anything as to the kind of neck joint it uses.
Author:  George L [ Sat Aug 31, 2013 7:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Neck reset help
I'd probably just remove a bit of the top there to get a look at what's going on.
Author:  Tai Fu [ Sat Aug 31, 2013 11:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Neck reset help
That's too much... just remove the thing from the neck block, and see if a bolt is present. If not, saw the neck off and convert it to a bolt on. Thing about imitation is they only copy the visible aspect, not the invisible aspect (such as neck joints)
Author:  Tony_in_NYC [ Sun Sep 01, 2013 7:17 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Neck reset help
Tai Fu wrote:
I wouldn't be surprised if it was doweled or epoxy set... Takamines aren't made to last more than 5 years.


Really? I don't think that is the case. I have a 24 year old Takamine 12 string that barely needs a neck reset and sounds awesome. I also had a Takamine G series I bought used. It was 3-4 years old when I got it and I had it for 4 years before selling it and it was pretty nice too.
Author:  absrec [ Sun Sep 01, 2013 10:56 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Neck reset help
This guitar was a good one. Not that it will ever be the same because I know it won't. I'm thinking I may have to disassemble it more than I expected. That's fine though since it will be a good education on how acoustics are put together. 3 repairmen wouldn't touch it probably because they knew it would have been more labor than anyone would want to pay for. The beauty of doing it myself is there's no clock ticking, it's free and I can only gain from the experience both in knowledge and the satisfaction of having that guitar playing again. It'll make my dad happy too.
Author:  absrec [ Mon Sep 02, 2013 11:02 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Neck reset help
Todd Stock wrote:
If the fretboard extension had not already been cut, it would have been fairly easy to use a zero set saw to cut from end cap to just below the board, floss the joint, and reglue with PU, plus perhaps a screw from block into neck wood. As it is, just cut the neck loose and convert to a bolt-on. Should be easy to tell if there is a bolt in there already with a rare earth magnet.

Oh well... I'm a newbie with acoustics. The magnet trick is amazing though. Never thought of that. This is going to require more than just a simple neck reset though. The portion of the top directly under the tongue has caved in. You can kinda see it in the one picture. Don't know if this means some of the bracing has given out or what. Something whacky happened in there for sure though.
Author:  Tai Fu [ Mon Sep 02, 2013 11:56 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Neck reset help
If that part gave out, 99.9% chance that the UTB is either loose or broken.
Author:  absrec [ Mon Sep 02, 2013 12:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Neck reset help
Tai Fu wrote:
If that part gave out, 99.9% chance that the UTB is either loose or broken.

What is the UTB?
Author:  Tai Fu [ Mon Sep 02, 2013 12:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Neck reset help
Upper transverse brace. It spans the upper bout close to the soundboard.
Author:  absrec [ Mon Sep 02, 2013 12:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Neck reset help
Tai Fu wrote:
Upper transverse brace. It spans the upper bout close to the soundboard.

Ok. Is that complicated to repair? Is it just a matter of gluing and clamping?
Author:  Tai Fu [ Mon Sep 02, 2013 12:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Neck reset help
If there's no displacement, then you can just reglue it and fix the crack. If the area has displaced (you can tell if it has), then you will have to find a way of stretching that back into place and then reglue and fix. In fact if there is displacement, that is probably the cause of your neck angle issue... There's a chance that it was left in a hot car, the top cracked because the UTB shifted, and then it got glued back into place as it cooled... in that case you'll have to remove the UTB, restore the displaced top, then glue it back in, then reinforce it.
Author:  absrec [ Mon Sep 02, 2013 12:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Neck reset help
Tai Fu wrote:
If there's no displacement, then you can just reglue it and fix the crack. If the area has displaced (you can tell if it has), then you will have to find a way of stretching that back into place and then reglue and fix.

So, maybe a pair of turnbuckles to jack up the top and then epoxy the brace back where it belongs?
Author:  Tai Fu [ Mon Sep 02, 2013 12:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Neck reset help
It's not that simple anymore... you need to restore the displacement. I can see evidence of displacement in your pics. The soundhole rosette is out of round where the crack is, and I can see a bit of the top poking out the soundhole. You have to loosen the UTB and stretch the top back into position, then glue that UTB back into place. Then you have to reinforce it. I suspect this may be the cause of your neck angle problem.
Author:  absrec [ Mon Sep 02, 2013 3:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Neck reset help
Tai Fu wrote:
It's not that simple anymore... you need to restore the displacement. I can see evidence of displacement in your pics. The soundhole rosette is out of round where the crack is, and I can see a bit of the top poking out the soundhole. You have to loosen the UTB and stretch the top back into position, then glue that UTB back into place. Then you have to reinforce it. I suspect this may be the cause of your neck angle problem.

Definitely. The displacement in the top was the first thing I noticed. When you say "reinforce", do you mean add something that wasn't there in the first place? Would it be better to remove the top and correct the bracing problems while having better acces to everything? I figure I'm gonna end up sawing the neck off anyway and possibly refinishing it due to the trauma it's about to undergo.
Author:  Tai Fu [ Mon Sep 02, 2013 9:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Neck reset help
No, no need to remove the top unless the damage is extensive and it's partially coming off... the only reason I did it to those Stellas is because the top or back was extensively damaged, and it was already coming off in places. It's a LOT of work to put them back on so don't do it unless you absolutely must (such as repairing violins where the body/soundhole is way too small for any tools to go in).

By reinforce I mean patch up the soundhole area with an additional piece of spruce with the grain running perpendicular. It would then be trimmed in such a way that it becomes difficult to notice by looking from the outside. Fix the fingerboard top crack before removing the neck, because the neck angle may correct itself once this is fixed. If you bend the neck outward the top may realign itself.
Author:  absrec [ Tue Sep 03, 2013 6:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Neck reset help
I managed to take a picture of the UTB. Pretty awkward task. It doesn't feel as though it has cracked or broken. I did, however, take a pair of my small Irwin clamps and squeezed the top as flat as I could along the UTB and checked the neck angle. It did improve. The straight edge went from hitting the bridge to clearing it by almost 1/16".

The question now is - since the UTB is attached pretty well to the top, how do I separate it so I can reglue it?
Author:  absrec [ Tue Sep 03, 2013 7:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Neck reset help
Alright.... Where to, Boss? :D

I started pulling on the neck trying to fix the displacement in the top. As I did this, I noticed the neck separating at the joint. So, believe it or not (I know you do Tai), the neck came off without any steam or (what I would classify as) excessive force. The 5 dowels that were used to mount the neck didn't even break! :shock:

Correct me if I'm wrong but... don't I now have a few options that I didn't think I was going to have? Could I possibly convert it to a dovetail now??? I understand the woodworking implications in this and am fully up to the challenge. Just wonder if there's anything I'm not yet aware of.
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