Official Luthiers Forum!

...and potentially off-topic?

Anyways, a few years ago, I was more active on the forum when I was trying to figure things out. Since then, I've more or less dialed it in, and I know how to make a Martin copy, without problems. So, I've built a couple for friends.

One of these friends, or more like a friend-of-a-friend (let's call him Mr. X), gave me money to buy materials, with the handshake agreement (...I'm sure you can see where this is going ...) that he would pay for my labor upon completion. This was in 2010.

So I purchase materials and begin building. And a few months go by. Mr. X is responsive to my emails at first, and sees initial progress, in person. But, soon after that (around early-to-mid-2011), he doesn't respond to any phone or email communication at all.

Meanwhile, this guitar is turning out to be the best things I've ever made, and it just goes together flawlessly and the whole thing feels extra special.

But after not hearing from him, I feel a mixture of both enthusiasm and apathy for the project. The last time I contacted Mr. X was in mid-2012, I left a voicemail asking him what was going on, if he had interest in the guitar any more, etc. I do know that I had the right number. No response.

This is where Mr. Z comes in. Mr. Z introduced me to Mr. X in the first place. Mr. Z tells me that the reason Mr. X has been unresponsive is because Mr. X has left his wife, Mrs. X, and has started having a relationship with Mrs. Z, and his life, as well as all of those around him, has been made upside now. (Which is all true). This was in 2012. Late in 2012, Mr. Z contacts Mrs. X, and Mr. Z informs me to go full speed ahead on the guitar, it's his now. He will make any arrangements necessary to procure it.

So I begin work, again. But I go very slow as this is only a weekend pursuit for me. And nearly a year goes by. And the guitar is almost done. And still no word from Mr. X.

Until Saturday night. Mr. X sends me an email asking about the guitar. So I tell him about it. And all hell breaks loose.

Mr. X has threatened Former Mrs. X with litigation if she doesn't pay him back by the end of this week.

Mr. X and Mrs. X have already divorced. Not that it matters, but from what I could tell the money in that marriage was all hers. And Mr. X hasn't mentioned any interest in paying for my time, nor have I yet brought it up.

It's hard to separate personal animosity from business. Mr. X shacked up with my friend's wife.

What would you do?

(And by the way, if you feel I'm in the wrong, blast away, I can take it.)

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"...you have to get over your strict adherence to your largely imagined notion of absolute perfection..."

Probably best solution is to finish the Guitar, get the strings on and play a bit of Blues on it.

Solid advice from Filippo.

The only thing I'll add is that you might want to shop the story around to see if you can option this for a movie. Truth is stranger than fiction!

Regarding your own attachment to this guitar, the other thing I'll add is that you're going to continue to get better and even more consistent as a builder. So no worries even if this guitar ends up with someone you're not fond of. Because the next one will be even better!

Phil

Sell the script. That could be milked out for at least a few episodes of some soap opera.

And I would finish the guitar and stand in front of the dudes house playing so he could hear what he was missing out on. Or at least finish the guitar.

You've receive some good advice. First of all, if you aren't a "business" -- then this is your hobby/passion and something you do for personal reasons. If this individual has hurt your friend, then I don't believe you are obligated to keep your commitment to him -- after all, he is a rat bastard. If this is a business and you made a business agreement then I believe you should keep your commitments. However, Mr.X.Rat.Bastard did not give you a response within a reasonable time - tell him you moved on and since he didn't respond, you have offered the guitar to someone else.

And who said lutherie wasn't exciting!!!


Best Regard,
Simon

Me once had a some what similar B.S. situation so me keep the ax and burnt the bridge.

Simple.

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Audiences and dispensations on Thursdays ~ by appointment only.


.

Personally i like the novel idea. Except make Mr. X the builder, who was making one for his friend Mr. Z, (who btw is a world renowned classical guitarist,) who shacked up with Mrs. X, leaving the builder to deal with his misery by turning to the only thing that keeps him going, guitar building. So he continues to work on the guitar while contemplating the value of it as object/instrument to bring beauty into the world while overcoming the obstacles of who it is made for.

That said, you will next need to get past the standard disclaimer of "This story is a work of fiction and has no relation to people living or dead" deal, and not add another set of headaches!

(Yeah, my other passion is writing.)

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Phil

http://www.oleninstruments.com

"Those who tilt at windmills are only considered insane by those who can't see the dragon."

For now...just finish the guitar. It would be best to wait and consider your options until after this instrument is done. Then you'll be the ONE guy in all of this that has followed through and done what he said he'd do.

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I read Emerson on the can. A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds...true...but a consistent reading of Emerson has its uses nevertheless.

StuMusic

triple your labor rates?

You guys are cool and very funny. Thanks for the feedback! It feels to me like Mr. X wants his money back. But he wants to hurt former Mrs. X even more.

Still not sure what I will do. Filippo's #2 idea is intriguing. Hmmm.

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"...you have to get over your strict adherence to your largely imagined notion of absolute perfection..."

The only advice I can add to the above is that if you are going to have to complete the business transaction and you haven't yet closed the box you could always write "Mr. X is an adulterer" on the inside of the top. That may make you feel better. . .

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Bryan Bear PMoMC

Take care of your feet, and your feet will take care of you.

Add a horse or dog into the story, and Merle Haggard has a hit! Anyways, finish the guitar, and see how it plays out.
I made an armoire for a customer many years ago, and when it was finished, they hemmed and hawed for a while. They finally said they didn't want it, so they lost their deposit, and I've had the armoire in my family room since. Keep us posted, Martin, this is a good one!

Alex

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"Indecision is the key to flexibility" .... Bumper sticker

It would be a shame if Mr. Z got a hold of it and used it to clobber Mr. X with it. Make sure you get paid first.

When the guitar is finished, invite them both over on the same night, at the same time. Then, let Mr. X and Mr. Z fight to the death for the guitar. They want to do it anyway over the wife theft, this is just fuel for the fire. It will be like Thunderdome! Two men enter. One man leaves!!

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http://www.CostaGuitars.com
PMoMC

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"...you have to get over your strict adherence to your largely imagined notion of absolute perfection..."

Agreed , Keep the Axe and let the Dynamite loose on all the bridges !

Let this be a lesson to all you kids out there , when u get caught up in the trailer park section of the alphabet Nothing good ever comes out of it ! Thus ends this weeks episode of " As the Luthier Turns"

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The Shallower the depth of the stream , The Louder the Babble !
The Taking Of Offense Is the Life Course Of The Stupid One !
Wanna Leave a Better Planet for our Kids? How about Working on BETTER KIDS for our Planet !
Forgiveness is the ability to accept an apology that you will probably NEVER GET
The truth will set you free , But FIRST, it will probably Piss you Off !
Creativity is allowing yourself to make Mistakes, Art is knowing which ones to Keep !
The Saddest thing anyone can do , is push a Loyal Person to the point that they Dont Care Anymore
Never met a STRONG person who had an EASY past !
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As much as I hate to say it, i think X, X, and Z have a whole lot bigger problems on their minds at the moment than the guitar one of them ordered.

Think of it this way: instead of a guitar, say one of them ordered a brand new custom pickup truck. Put a down payment on it, and the factory started the order. Then everything hit the fan. Think they'll care much about the truck any more? Probably not, even if it got delivered it might just be a reminder of a bad time. They're going to be fighting over houses, furniture, children, where they're going to live, who keeps the friends, who goes to a different church, and who knows what all else. I figure more than likely, they'd write off the down payment and walk away, leaving it with the Dealer. Hurt your credit rating? Hey buddy, add it to the list. Either that or take delivery and sell it ASAP.

Honestly, you may be just one more detail (Among many) to deal with at this point. Please don't take this the wrong way, I am thinking in terms of a business transaction only, without any friendship ties to go along with it. Seems to me your options are either finish it or don't. From your original post, sounds like it is going to be a very good guitar. If so, I'd finish it. When it is done, let them know it is now available, and offer it to them at whatever cost you see fit, take it or leave it. A lot may change between now and then.

Sorry you got caught up in this, but I suppose it is always a risk, made even worse when dealing with friends.

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Phil

http://www.oleninstruments.com

"Those who tilt at windmills are only considered insane by those who can't see the dragon."

I like the option of:
Ok, Mr. X - You can have it if you pay for it. It will cost you $,$$$
Or... I can give you your wood money back... That's going to be $$$
Either way - tell them you don't want to be in the middle of their fight....

This way - you don't end up in the middle of the whole thing... I can't imagine he dropped a huge pile 'O cash on the wood.... When things like this go south - sometimes, the only thing they can agree on is to screw you...

Then - while they may want to fight amongst themselves - you aren't stuck in the middle...

BUT.. Yes - finish it! Perhaps keep it to spite them all...

Thanks

First things first, finish the guitar.

If I'm understanding the situation properly, then if Mr. X is still responding to email/phone when the guitar is done, he deserves a shot at it as per the initial agreement, regardless of the personal drama he's gotten himself wrapped up in since then. If he doesn't want to pay what it's worth, keep it or sell it to someone else. If you value his friendship over your business and he makes a big deal out of it, give him his wood money back. But most builders take a non-refundable deposit before starting a build, so it would be perfectly reasonable for you to keep it, assuming it's not more than $500 or so.

I think this is a situation where I might be sensitive to the extenuating circumstance....

It's one thing when someone just flakes out....

It's another thing when some looses (Or gives away depending on semantics) most of what they have and that prevents them from following through.... and that's probably 99% of why the fellow went MIA on you....

It's like when someone looses their job... No matter how much they want to spend the money on hand made guitars - it's dumb/destructive for them to do it....

I would be sympathetic to the 2nd circumstance.. because you really don't want to encourage destructive behavior on his part... I am not particularly sympathetic to the first situation....

Give him the out and see how he responds.... Perhaps offer his money back and give him a standing offer to build him a 2nd guitar at the same terms you were offering the first guitar... and that he has the option to exercise it within 1 year.... That will give him some time to get back on his feet.... and show that YOU aren't the bad guy...

Thanks

Thanks again everyone for the advice.

Filippo is reading the situation well. I got to know Mr. X during the early stage of the project and found out that he's an irresponsible person that liked to spend his ex-wife's money. This was not bad luck. He cheated on her after she had just given birth, flaked out on personal responsibility, etc, etc, etc.

He didn't respond to a year's worth of email or voicemails, not because of hard times that happened to him, but because of his own problems which he brought on himself. Perhaps he couldn't bring himself to speak to me due to all of the shame he felt from shagging my friend's spouse.

After he contacted me Saturday, and I consulted with some folks and heard back w sage advice (thanks y'all!) I reminded him of the terms of our agreement and informed him that in accordance with state law I had a right as an aggrieved seller to cancel, resell and recover.

I spent a lot of hours undoing and redoing. I'm not about to turn back.

Anyhow, X has not responded to me this week. However, I have found out that this week Mr. X has been pummeling former Mrs X with irate communications, blaming her for the loss of his guitar, accusing her of lying, and threatening her (not me) with litigation. Do you know the type?

Bridge burned.

I would love to sell the guitar and give the wood money back to former Mrs. X. The thing is, if she accepted it, Mr X would likely find out and then fight her for it. If I just go onward, and let Mr Z pay for my labor, then everything will work about as well as it can. At least I hope so.

But plans can change.

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"...you have to get over your strict adherence to your largely imagined notion of absolute perfection..."

This just in. I guess the threats against former Mrs. X didn't work. He asked her to pay him by the end of the week, or he would sue. She told him to bugger off. Tonight he has asked me to repay the materials cost.

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"...you have to get over your strict adherence to your largely imagined notion of absolute perfection..."

I'd be offering the finished guitar to Mr X at a high price with a short time to respond
When you hear nothing, sell at whatever discounted price you can get then the loss is applied to any deposit cancelling it out.

So Mr. X gets Mr Z's wife, and Mr Z wants Mr. X's guitar in return. Those Guitar - Wife swapping things seldom work out. It's hard to figure out who is getting the better end of the deal (although in this case I'll bet it's the one who walks away with the guitar.).
If you do not wish to complete the guitar for Mr. X, I think you should return the down payment. Just because he is of low moral character doesn't give you the right to keep his money. If you have no problem selling Mr. X a guitar, then by all means finish it, and collect the balance.

Money makes people do crazy things. Hard times do it too. I once loaned my step father a large sum if money to start a new business. He was to pay me back, with interest, beginning in 6 months from when I loaned him the money. He never paid me back but we became partners instead when he needed additional money to expand. Then he and my mom divorced and we split up the business (50/50) and parted ways. A few years later he had fallen on hard times and I was selling my company for a nice profit, he found out about it and called me to demand his part of the profits. I politely told him where he could go. He had no right to a penny and still had never paid back the original loan!
I would bill the guy for your time and when he doesn't pay, keep the wood as payment.

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http://www.CostaGuitars.com
PMoMC