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| Flat Top Classical? https://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=33285 |
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| Author: | jfmckenna [ Mon Aug 22, 2011 11:34 am ] |
| Post subject: | Flat Top Classical? |
I just built my first true flat top steal string a few months ago and I am so impressed with the tone that I've began wondering about the same technique for a classical guitar build. Maybe this guitar was a one off lucky shot that sounds so good and I plan to build several more to see how they come out before becoming a flat top religious convert but really, I love the tone of this guitar. Has anyone built a true flat classical that can offer some advice on the issue of tone? |
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| Author: | wbergman [ Mon Aug 22, 2011 12:54 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Flat Top Classical? |
Most of the posts that I have seen on this issue support a slight arch or dome to greatly reduce the chance of future cracking. This is a spearate issue from tone. |
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| Author: | Laurent Brondel [ Mon Aug 22, 2011 1:37 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Flat Top Classical? |
Before Torres, most if not all guitars were built with a true flat top. |
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| Author: | David Newton [ Mon Aug 22, 2011 5:48 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Flat Top Classical? |
I think you should make a run for it. If you are not sure if your earlier success was luck or skill, you should continue with what you have begun. A true flat topped guitar of any style can be just as challenging as a domed guitar. One or the other is not "superior" the only thing making it superior is your skill as a maker. Humidity control is much more important with flat top building. I have migrated to a flatter top over time, and there are slight differences in tone, but no quantum leaps. |
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| Author: | oval soundhole [ Mon Aug 22, 2011 9:21 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Flat Top Classical? |
Didn't Hauser build Segovia's guitar with a flat top that had a slight arch due to arching only the two braces above and bellow the sound hole, but leaving the fan braces flat, and the arching the top further with the bridge or something? |
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| Author: | douglas ingram [ Mon Aug 22, 2011 9:26 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Flat Top Classical? |
I've heard a number of builders advocating a flat top. I forget their names just now... Just pay attention to the neck angle! I find that, in millimeters, dome + forward neck set should = 5. This gets you in the right neighbourhood for setup. Also, pay attention to top stiffness. It will be different than a dome top so keep track of how stiff your dome tops feel and how stiff the flt top feels. How you get to your desired top stiffness will be a little different with either approach. |
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| Author: | Eric Reid [ Mon Aug 22, 2011 10:16 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Flat Top Classical? |
Laurent Brondel wrote: Before Torres, most if not all guitars were built with a true flat top. I'm curious about this, Laurent. I recall Richard Brune telling me that the predecessors to Torres' work were highly domed--that Torres' guitars were different in being only slightly domed. He theorized that some of Torres' guitars had what doming there was induced by clamping an arched bridge on a flat top, as he believes Hauser did. I don't pretend to know much about this. I wouldn't be surprised if there were both: early flat tops, and early domed tops. Any sources you can point me to will be appreciated. |
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| Author: | mqbernardo [ Tue Aug 23, 2011 5:44 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Flat Top Classical? |
In his book on Torres, Romanillos quotes Ian Harwood saying that some guitar makers in the XVI century already arched their plates, but only transversely and by arching the transversal bars that comprised the strutting of the top and glueing a flat top to them (Early Music Magazine, 10/78). It was Torres (according to Romanillos) that first started to dome his tops by the usage of a concave solera, arched fan struts and bridge. |
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| Author: | Laurent Brondel [ Tue Aug 23, 2011 6:49 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Flat Top Classical? |
Eric Reid wrote: I wouldn't be surprised if there were both: early flat tops, and early domed tops. Lutes, vihuelas, Baroque and Romantic guitars are traditionally built flat. String tension will gently pull the top into a dome and keep it there. As with everything else in luthiery, there must have been outliers, i.e builders who tried different ideas that later became "innovations" when widespread. But before Torres epoch, common use was to build flat, without any induced tension on the top.
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| Author: | Michael.N. [ Tue Aug 23, 2011 7:58 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Flat Top Classical? |
Flat or with a slight scoop along the length of the soundboard. From my experience of building true flat top instruments they all have a tendency to become concave, even without string tension. Perhaps that is why makers started to dome their Tops/Backs. |
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| Author: | jfmckenna [ Tue Aug 23, 2011 8:00 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Flat Top Classical? |
People actually arch the fan braces? I never have arched the fans before only the transverse brace below the sound hole. That brace sets the dome shape in the top even with flat fans. My fan braces are so delicate that I don't think they would even hold an arch. I went ahead and arched my current flemenco build anyway and closed the box last night. Maybe next time I will give it a try and see what happens. |
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| Author: | inoz [ Tue Aug 23, 2011 8:12 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Flat Top Classical? |
Slight change of the subject but do you have any sound clips or a you tube of your flat top steel string, I'd love to hear it as my last two have been flat tops and I love their sound and would like to compare. Ray. |
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| Author: | jfmckenna [ Tue Aug 23, 2011 8:20 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Flat Top Classical? |
Inoz no sorry I don't have any sound clips. I'm not a very good player either and it a bit bashful but if I can get some one over to play it maybe I'll do a recording. |
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| Author: | Michael.N. [ Tue Aug 23, 2011 8:41 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Flat Top Classical? |
jfmckenna wrote: People actually arch the fan braces? I never have arched the fans before only the transverse brace below the sound hole. That brace sets the dome shape in the top even with flat fans. My fan braces are so delicate that I don't think they would even hold an arch. I went ahead and arched my current flemenco build anyway and closed the box last night. Maybe next time I will give it a try and see what happens. Not the fan braces. They didn't really exist until sometime late in the 18 th century. The scoop is produced by planing it into the Sides - Lute and some Baroque Guitars were produced that way. It holds the Top in some tension. BTW I'm not advocating that you try it on a modern Classical. Who knows though, it might be worth a stab. |
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| Author: | inoz [ Tue Aug 23, 2011 8:42 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Flat Top Classical? |
I got my nephew to put mine on you tube for me and I can't play for nuts, but don't worry the world isn't laughing at you they are laughing WITH you  Check out mine and tell me if yours sounds similar or not? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HvzVlprT ... ideo_title |
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| Author: | mqbernardo [ Tue Aug 23, 2011 10:12 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Flat Top Classical? |
jfmckenna wrote: People actually arch the fan braces? I never have arched the fans before only the transverse brace below the sound hole. That brace sets the dome shape in the top even with flat fans. My fan braces are so delicate that I don't think they would even hold an arch. I went ahead and arched my current flemenco build anyway and closed the box last night. Maybe next time I will give it a try and see what happens. If you´re referring to my quote of Romanillos, i was translating from the spanish version directly, maybe i have given you the wrong impression. I guess he was saying that in the Torres prototype the top, the braces and the bridge are working together, as a single unit, to form the domed plate; the braces will be arched under tension from the top and bridge, unlike the aforementioned transversely arched top models, in which the transverse bars were not under tension - just the top. at least that´s my interpretation. cheers, miguel. |
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