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High Quality / Perfection / Frustration...
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Author:  sdsollod [ Fri Aug 19, 2011 2:21 pm ]
Post subject:  High Quality / Perfection / Frustration...
After 5 guitars I am still waiting to feel that I have achieved a high level of quality. It seems that there is always something that doesn't come out as "perfect" as I would like (no matter how hard I try to get it just right). [headinwall]
It gets frustrating. gaah On this last one, Things were going pretty well (except having the sander get away from me a little during some minor work on the neck), until I sanded through the finish a little on the headstock, dented the finish with a clamp putting the neck on, and chipping the bridge... Dang! I hate these errors. How many do I have to build before I don't make these kind of errors?
Steve
Author:  WudWerkr [ Fri Aug 19, 2011 2:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: High Quality / Perfection / Frustration...
sdsollod wrote:
After 5 guitars I am still waiting to feel that I have achieved a high level of quality. It seems that there is always something that doesn't come out as "perfect" as I would like (no matter how hard I try to get it just right). [headinwall]
It gets frustrating. gaah On this last one, Things were going pretty well (except having the sander get away from me a little during some minor work on the neck), until I sanded through the finish a little on the headstock, dented the finish with a clamp putting the neck on, and chipping the bridge... Dang! I hate these errors. How many do I have to build before I don't make these kind of errors?
Steve



Waaaaayyyy to many zeros in that number for me to ever get there , not really sure that number is actually real .
Author:  Phillip Patton [ Fri Aug 19, 2011 2:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: High Quality / Perfection / Frustration...
WudWerkr wrote:
Waaaaayyyy to many zeros in that number for me to ever get there , not really sure that number is actually real .


Now that's encouraging. pfft :D
Author:  meddlingfool [ Fri Aug 19, 2011 3:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: High Quality / Perfection / Frustration...
Just take heart from the fact that you are improving on each one. It doesn't matter how many it takes to get 'perfect'. What is that anyway? Just keep getting better...
Author:  Dave Stewart [ Fri Aug 19, 2011 3:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: High Quality / Perfection / Frustration...
Steve, everyone makes mistakes. I think the important thing is to really look at what occured & why and try not to REPEAT them. Dings in the finish?.... part of your procedure should be fitting protectors at specific points. Sandthroughs?... what's the deposition? bad technique? (sanded through headstock edges myself). For me, mistakes get perminently noted/highlighted in procedures for the next time. I always try to anticipate a)what CAN go wrong and b) WHEN this tool slips, how will it plunge into me or the work ....... make appropriate corrections.
Author:  banjopicks [ Fri Aug 19, 2011 3:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: High Quality / Perfection / Frustration...
I feel like I've made a lot of improvements but they are so easily overshadowed by stupid mistakes at the end. My last mandolin came out just about as good as I can make one. Then I buffed it. Ruined the bindings in 3 places. +1 for frustration.
Author:  Pat Foster [ Fri Aug 19, 2011 3:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: High Quality / Perfection / Frustration...
You know that little symbol that looks like an eight on its side? From my experience, I'm beginning to think that's the answer. :(

I've been led to that conclusion after looking at the benches of some veteran pros and seeing things like huge, heavy ceramic bowls where the CA is kept, padding taped on the outside of the main vise, walls that are bare of tools above where setups are done, cardboard taped over spruce tops, etc.

Pat
Author:  the Padma [ Fri Aug 19, 2011 4:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: High Quality / Perfection / Frustration...
5 eh...das good, now add 2 zeros and thats about how many stringed instruments me has made in me life, and you know what?
Me still makes on average at least a dozen blunders per build. Oh well. idunno

The thing is, me really good at hiding them laughing6-hehe

other thing is ...me don't give a shift ether!


There be a lot more stuff in life to be getting bent out of shape over than a hunk of wood and some strings. Ask wud, he'll tell ya like it is.



blessings
duh Padma
Author:  theguitarwhisperer [ Fri Aug 19, 2011 4:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: High Quality / Perfection / Frustration...
It took me about 5 years before I produced a decent instrument that went smoothly from start to finish, that I also felt was superior to what the high end factories are producing.
Author:  sdsollod [ Fri Aug 19, 2011 4:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: High Quality / Perfection / Frustration...
These comments make me feel a little better. I do think I'm improving... I just hate when stupid, unforseen things happen. I guess the trick is to get good at either fixing it or make it look like you meant to do it... [:Y:]
Author:  mqbernardo [ Fri Aug 19, 2011 5:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: High Quality / Perfection / Frustration...
sdsollod wrote:
How many do I have to build before I don't make these kind of errors?
that´s an easy one. based on my my calculations, and with the statistic robustness that they´ve come to be known for, i´d say more or less plenty.

hope all goes better on the 6th.

cheers,
miguel.
Author:  Don Williams [ Fri Aug 19, 2011 5:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: High Quality / Perfection / Frustration...
It doesn't really get any better. You may always feel that way. Most of us are such intense perfectionists that we will always notice some little thing that isn't completely perfect. To make matters worse, the guys who show their instruments at the big shows tend to really have their stuff down, and when you look at their instruments, you feel like you can achieve that, but you know you may still have more work to do.
Author:  peter.coombe [ Fri Aug 19, 2011 6:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: High Quality / Perfection / Frustration...
A very good (Luthier) friend of mine once told me that the best Luthiers are those that can hide their mistakes the best. I'm just past 140 instruments, but dinged the latest mandolin against the back of a chair so got a chance to test that theory. Stuff ups happen all the time, and sometines you wonder how you could be so stupid.
Author:  WudWerkr [ Fri Aug 19, 2011 7:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: High Quality / Perfection / Frustration...
sdsollod wrote:
These comments make me feel a little better. I do think I'm improving... I just hate when stupid, unforseen things happen. I guess the trick is to get good at either fixing it or make it look like you meant to do it... [:Y:]



Stupid Unforseen things are going to happen on EVERY BUILD , Why can I say this with the confidence that I do? Its Simple YOU are NOT perfect , Therefore you will never produce perfection . As has been so aptly stated , just get better at fixing or hiding mistakes .

Quote:
I'm just past 140 instruments, but dinged the latest mandolin


The guys who have the " perfect guitars " at show , Just are Not telling the complete story , they had ooooopssesss as well.
Author:  bluescreek [ Fri Aug 19, 2011 7:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: High Quality / Perfection / Frustration...
without mentors or instructors, you have to learn on your own . It took me about 14 till I felt I have the fit and finish where I needed it . Building is easy it is the patience and learning how to get a good prep for finish and getting a good fit on the joinery and binding.
Keep a log and make notes of what was done right and whaw wasn't you;ll get there
Author:  Pat Redmiles [ Fri Aug 19, 2011 8:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: High Quality / Perfection / Frustration...
I have found that the biggest problem is patience; or rather, getting too excited about finishing an instrument to pay attention the fine details, especially towards the last steps. I find I have to make an effort to focus on the task and not on the completion, and take a calm approach. That has prevented a lot of boo-boos. But still, as said before, the skill comes in hiding your errors, not in not making them.
Author:  alan stassforth [ Fri Aug 19, 2011 8:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: High Quality / Perfection / Frustration...
You are making musical instruments.
The most important thing to me is,
how do they sound?
How do they hold up?
Next thing, how do they play?
Last thing, how do they look?
Get the first 3 down, THEN concentrate on the looks part.......
Nothing like a cool looking guitar though!
Author:  douglas ingram [ Fri Aug 19, 2011 9:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: High Quality / Perfection / Frustration...
Shift the focus away from Perfection.

Perfection should not exist in your lutherie vocabulary. Instead, use the word "excellent". Perfection is a static state in a kinetic universe, its unsustainable.

As you get better in your mastery of the craft, your attention will be put towards smaller and smaller elements, and you will be more and more demanding of yourself. It can be excruciating, so keep your eye on the big picture.

Do yourself a favour and cut yourself some slack 'cause its a long road! Enjoy the scenery.
Author:  cphanna [ Fri Aug 19, 2011 10:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: High Quality / Perfection / Frustration...
Everyone responding has lent great insights to this thread. Obviously, they have all been where you are...and I personally feel that I just live in that spot PERPETUALLY. But I do think of all the insights in this thread, the single most shining insight came from Don Williams. I will paraphrase him if I may: You will always be your own worst critic. No one else will ever judge your work the same way that you judge it. So don't beat yourself up too badly. You'll probably have a lot of fans and cheerleaders out here amongst the rest of us--hobbyists and professionals alike.

And now back to my own insight: Don't ever measure yourself against the best work being shown here, because we don't ever see the failed work of those builders. They have the occasional goof up, too. Just measure your current work against your previous work. If you are getting a little better each time, well, isn't that just great?! I think it is!

Press on!
Patrick
Author:  Steve Davis [ Fri Aug 19, 2011 10:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: High Quality / Perfection / Frustration...
What an "Excellent" reply Douglas
whole heartedly agree
paintings are admired for their brush strokes
Author:  Terence Kennedy [ Fri Aug 19, 2011 11:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: High Quality / Perfection / Frustration...
I was at Jim Olson's place the other day and he was re-topping a new guitar. He said he was in a hurry and was holding the instrument with one hand and applying buffing compound to the wheel with the other. He has shrouds around the back of his wheels and the wheel caught the bar and threw it back through the top of the guitar. That pretty much says it all, we're all human.
Author:  lactose [ Sat Aug 20, 2011 1:57 am ]
Post subject:  Re: High Quality / Perfection / Frustration...
Not sure where I heard this, but:

"All wood workers are perfectionists, but instrument makers live in a special hell."

Being a player, I get too anxious and rush things wanting to play my weird contraption. I am learning to slow down. I should know better, I am a long time meditator and understand how important breathing and state of mind are. I almost lost two fingers by rushing with the table saw.
Author:  B. Howard [ Sat Aug 20, 2011 7:36 am ]
Post subject:  Re: High Quality / Perfection / Frustration...
For what its worth, I have made my living for the last 30+ years woodworking. The last 20+ almost exclusively making
custom cabinetry and furniture. I have yet to make anything that was perfect. That is not to say I have not made a lot of real nice and beautiful things, but none were perfect. I have worked on some nice antique furniture over the years as well , and it was all far from perfect. The best I have ever done is create the illusion of perfection in the mind of the customer. In fact at this point I am convinced that perfection is nothing but an illusion. As a maker you are intimately entwined with your work, you see every defect no matter how small and insignificant. Your mind and eye are drawn to these little things like a moth to a flame, but most will never notice them, and some even experts will struggle to find them under the closest scrutiny. So relax, enjoy what you are doing, realize mistakes are inevitable and when they occur just accept it has happened and remedy it in the best fashion possible. I do not get upset with myself until I make the same mistake twice.
Author:  Frank Cousins [ Sat Aug 20, 2011 8:33 am ]
Post subject:  Re: High Quality / Perfection / Frustration...
To add 2 cets worth... for what its worth as someone who has pnly completed 2 and with a 24 year period between the last time I held a chisel and when I started my first....

1. Building by hand is never going to be the same (for me anyway) as if I had a ton of CNC machinery precisly carving necks and neck joints, etc... I will never be a factory with precision tools. BUt for me that is the beauty of it... woodworking skills will improve with each build so why worry about it? The key is Alan said above, its a musical instrument - therefore does it make a musical tone? Does it play well? For me, my first target for each build is what it sounds like and what it plays like... and technical woodworking skills are learned along the way.

2. As a player for some 30 years, there is a reason why many folk look for a hand built instrument rather than a factory one - because of the time, care and attention that is put into creating the tone - the care in bracing and shaping, selecting the best woods etc... if there are a few obvious things that say 'hand made' but the instrument has tone to die for and plays like a dream... well so what? - YES I know that there are professional makers that will create things of stunning quality in build terms, and they command a price that is reflective of their experience and skill, but for most amateurs, the fun is in the building itself and that includes the frustrations and mistakes - made worthwhile when you string up and recognise a decent musical sound.

Striving for the best you can do is obviously a high and nobel ideal, but right now if teh best I can do is make a good sounding instrument with a few cosmetic flaws so be it - I had fun making it and learning in teh process. The best I can do in 15 years time will naturally (hopefully) be a lot better in terms of build quality, but I would already be happy if the tone were not that much different ... and as an instrument that must surely take priority idunno
Author:  Stuart Gort [ Sat Aug 20, 2011 8:53 am ]
Post subject:  Re: High Quality / Perfection / Frustration...
bluescreek wrote:
Keep a log and make notes of what was done right and what wasn't. You;ll get there.


That's really good advice. I knew a retired research scientist who help me a lot in a former life. That was exactly his advice as well.

Building guitars is complex stuff for the average guy. Often the things we learn, or fail to learn, are repeated simply because we forget not THAT we did something...but WHY we did it. Once I started keeping a journal I started going from point A to point Z on a much more direct path. Plus...writing helps me solidify what I've learned and makes it much more unlikely I'll forget the lesson....but if I do forget....I have notes. :)

As an example. I've probably done a hundred finishing or pore filling tests on 3"x 8" panels by now. For every one of them I made notes that detailed every step I took to arrive at that result. Say what you want about my guitars...but the finishes were pretty well done from the start. Mainly though...confidence to go forward was established not by flailing away, trying things...but by establishing the hows and whys prior to undertaking the larger problem.

So my particular advice is:

1. Whenever possible, break guitar building down into smaller, more managable problems and tackle those one at a time.
2. Test and prove all your assumptions whenever possible on something other than your guitar.
3. Lacking a full understanding of something...be as certain as you can about the outcome of a procedure before you commit your guitar to it.
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