Yo, Dave,
just do it.
blessings
Padma
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| Sunbursting Anxiety https://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=33197 |
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| Author: | Dave Livermore [ Fri Aug 12, 2011 10:54 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Sunbursting Anxiety |
Ok finishing gurus. Please give me some reassurance. What I have on hand is a really fine, well crafted, beautifully flamed maple L-00 body sitting in my shop, waiting for a tobacco burst. Also on hand is an airbrush, hvlp sprayer, nitro, can of DA, can of blonde Zinser shellac, Transtint amber red black and medium mahogany. So too have I read many posts and looked at hundreds of pictures of sunburst guitars and mandos and watched numerous You tube vids of people doing sunburst. But I just can't seem to bring myself to pull the trigger and get going on this. My plan is to hit the whole body (and neck) with black trans tint, thinned with DA. Then, sand that back to being mostly imperceptible (the black that is) I've practiced this part on scrap and it really does seem to help the figure POP. Then spray the whole top with DA tinted with amber and a tiny drop of brown. Then go to town on the brown around the edges. If any of you have any reassurances, tip, tricks, warnings or other you could offer that might help me jump into this, I'd appreciate hearing it. My biggest hangups right now concern keeping the dye off the maple binding and getting blotchy results. Thanks in advance for the help, Dave |
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| Author: | the Padma [ Sat Aug 13, 2011 12:15 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Sunbursting Anxiety |
Yo, Dave, just do it. blessings Padma
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| Author: | Clinchriver [ Sat Aug 13, 2011 7:24 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Sunbursting Anxiety |
Let me know what to do on the maple binding. Other than that do some testing on scrap wood. |
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| Author: | Robbie_McD [ Sat Aug 13, 2011 8:25 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Sunbursting Anxiety |
Spray, then scrape the binding with a razor blade inserted in a cork... |
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| Author: | cphanna [ Sat Aug 13, 2011 8:32 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Sunbursting Anxiety |
Hey, Dave, I had the same anxiety when I got ready to finish my archtop. I wasn't doing a full burst, but I did want to shoot a subtle shading all around the top edges. I practiced the motion, distance, trigger pull, the speed at which I was moving the gun, and all other variables several times on pieces of card board. Then I propped up the guitar and started spraying OUTSIDE my target zone--gradually sneaking into the area I wanted to shade. I used a round spray pattern, so I wouldn't need to manipulate my angle of aim. You have a couple of issues that I didn't have. I was shooting an entire instrument already covered with a sealer coat of shellac and one clear coat of lacquer. And my top had received an overall coat tinted with vintage amber, too. I was able to mask everything that I didn't want to tint, but again, I had the luxury of working over a clear coat. I can only tell you what I'd try. After applying and sanding back your grain popping treatment, and getting that much to your satisfaction, I think I'd shoot a clear coat and then shoot the burst over that. The binding will be a tricky, tedious masking job, and if I were doing it I'm sure I'd still need to do some scraping here and there after the color coats. But I'd be able to re-cover the clean up with subsequent clear coats. Please do let us know how your process goes. I'm sure you'll get it worked out. |
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| Author: | Dave Livermore [ Sat Aug 13, 2011 10:51 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Sunbursting Anxiety |
Getting closer this is the practice board after four or five tries. First tried with hvlp gun. Too cumbersome and couldn't control it. Then went to air brush, figured out pressure and air-dye mix. I kept adding black and going around the edge but I think it got too black. When I do the real thing, I'll just keep making it browner and browner. 
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| Author: | Daniel Minard [ Sat Aug 13, 2011 11:53 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Sunbursting Anxiety |
I have only done one, & was pretty nervous about getting the colour on evenly. I did a bunch of playing around, spraying guitar shaped cardboard & wasn't happy with the results. Until... I screwed a lazy susan to the bottom of an old 24" dish & laid a cardboard "guitar top" on it. Spinning the "guitar" (slowly) & adjusting the angle of spray I got the feel of it pretty quickly. When I finally tried the method on a real guitar, it worked great. I thinned the nitro about 30%. It flashed off so quickly, I was able to keep turning & spraying for five or six full turns without stopping. I waited a couple of hours & did another similar application & it was done. Scraping the bindings was way more stressful than the actual spraying. It was actually fun & I've been looking forward to another customer wanting a burst. Make sure to wipe the nozzle tip before starting to spray. If there is a drop of finish hanging on the tip, it will leave darker spots in your burst. I like to start the spray pointing the gun away from the instrument to establish a clean spray pattern before the finish touches the workpiece. |
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| Author: | Dave Fifield [ Sun Aug 14, 2011 12:07 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Sunbursting Anxiety |
Dave, I'm not a 'burst expert by any means, but at the recent GAL conference, we were told (by a real expert) that the green masking tape is NBG and that the best way to mask the bindings was to paint them with clear shellac - just one coat will do - this will keep the color out of the bindings. The green tape (and the painters blue tape) is too leaky apparently, and you WILL get color seepage. YMMV. Good luck. Dave F. |
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| Author: | cphanna [ Sun Aug 14, 2011 9:12 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Sunbursting Anxiety |
Yo, Dave, it looks to me like you're doing pretty well there--just a matter of getting the width of your pattern and the depth of your colors down to your own satisfaction. Keep on keepin' on. |
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| Author: | SteveCourtright [ Sun Aug 14, 2011 10:52 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Sunbursting Anxiety |
Very timely discussion (for me). Thanks for sharing your experiences, all. |
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| Author: | John How [ Sun Aug 14, 2011 11:44 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Sunbursting Anxiety |
Looks like you did real good Dave! I like to have a little wider shade around the edge leaving a smaller golden center but it's all about personal preference. Mine usually more resemble a Gibson style burst and e upper bout is pretty much all shaded but very nice job. Next time you'll have greater confidence and experience. Bravo! |
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| Author: | Dave Livermore [ Sun Aug 14, 2011 12:02 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Sunbursting Anxiety |
Thanks guys. I agree, the shaded area needs to be wider. What do you all prefer for the sides and neck? Do you leave the high spots (direct back of neck, outermost area of bouts) dark or light? or on the sides do you like to burst the center all the way around with dark nearest the binding all the way around? just curious. Dave |
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| Author: | Dave Stewart [ Sun Aug 14, 2011 3:13 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Sunbursting Anxiety |
You're trying to get a 3D effect with light/dark, so IMO I think highs (bout extremities, plate centers, back of neck on c'line) light and hollows (plate edges, heel, waist, tail, volute, neck sides) dark is proper. |
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| Author: | David Wren [ Sun Aug 14, 2011 4:31 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Sunbursting Anxiety |
If you decide to go for masking the bindings/rosette as opposed to scraping them, I've used the 3M fine-line masking tape that LMI sells and it works like a charm with no bleed at all. http://www.lmii.com/CartTwo/thirdproducts.asp?CategoryName=Adhesives&NameProdHeader=3M+Fine%2DLine+Masking+Tape |
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| Author: | guitarjtb [ Sun Aug 14, 2011 4:57 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Sunbursting Anxiety |
Click on the link here for "Anatomy of A Sunburst". http://www.burkettguitars.com/photos/sunburst/ Not the the same type sunburst you are looking for, but maybe it will help. I usually hold the guitar upside down and spray upward with the dark colors. You never know when the sprayer will decide to spit the dark lacquer right in the middle of the yellow area.  James |
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| Author: | CharlieT [ Sun Aug 14, 2011 11:41 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Sunbursting Anxiety |
James Burkett wrote: Click on the link here for "Anatomy of A Sunburst". http://www.burkettguitars.com/photos/sunburst/ Not the the same type sunburst you are looking for, but maybe it will help. I usually hold the guitar upside down and spray upward with the dark colors. You never know when the sprayer will decide to spit the dark lacquer right in the middle of the yellow area. James James - thank you for sharing that. As someone who has never done a burst, I found it really enlightening. ![[:Y:]](./images/smilies/smiley20.gif "Thumbs Up")
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| Author: | DannyV [ Sun Aug 14, 2011 11:45 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Sunbursting Anxiety |
David Wren wrote: If you decide to go for masking the bindings/rosette as opposed to scraping them, I've used the 3M fine-line masking tape that LMI sells and it works like a charm with no bleed at all. http://www.lmii.com/CartTwo/thirdproducts.asp?CategoryName=Adhesives&NameProdHeader=3M+Fine%2DLine+Masking+Tape That tape or the blue autobody tape also works well. I just did one the same (natural bindings)but it did have a .050 Wenge purfling to to make it easier to get separation between binding and tinted wood. I had very little scraping to do after. That's looking great. I think you have it figured out. Have fun with it. |
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| Author: | Andy Birko [ Mon Aug 15, 2011 8:38 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Sunbursting Anxiety |
cphanna wrote: I think I'd shoot a clear coat and then shoot the burst over that. I second that idea. The only dying I do to a bare board is the grain popping portion. Once that's done and the instrument is fully surface prepped, I put down a few coats of super blond shellac and do all the color work over that. I've used tape to mask sealed bindings with O.k. results but not perfect. |
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| Author: | Arnt Rian [ Mon Aug 15, 2011 1:17 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Sunbursting Anxiety |
Andy Birko wrote: cphanna wrote: I think I'd shoot a clear coat and then shoot the burst over that. I second that idea. The only dying I do to a bare board is the grain popping portion. Once that's done and the instrument is fully surface prepped, I put down a few coats of super blond shellac and do all the color work over that It depends on the look you prefer. A 'burst that is sprayed over a sealer looks quite different from one that is applied on bare wood, and how you apply it also matters. I use Transtint / Colortone aniline dyes, and I like to rub them directly onto the bare wood. I use a very diluted solution, and I rub the amber middle first, some medium brown around the edges, and then seal that. Sometimes, I will spray some darker colors around the edge, before I seal that with clear to see how it all looks. This gives a more uneven, and to my eye more interesting look, than one that is all applied by spraying. It's the look of the old Gibson mandolins and others. Dave Livermore wrote: I kept adding black and going around the edge but I think it got too black. When I do the real thing, I'll just keep making it browner and browner. Did you spray clear coats over that? Remember that the burst will look very different once you add those; your very dark edges will lighten up and become brown instead of black etc. |
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| Author: | CharlieT [ Mon Aug 15, 2011 2:03 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Sunbursting Anxiety |
Arnt Rian wrote: I use Transtint / Colortone aniline dyes, and I like to rub them directly onto the bare wood. I use a very diluted solution, and I rub the amber middle first, some medium brown around the edges, and then seal that. Arnt - what medium do you use to carry the dye, alcohol or water? Thanks! |
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| Author: | Arnt Rian [ Mon Aug 15, 2011 3:42 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Sunbursting Anxiety |
I use alcohol. I see I was a little unclear in my first post; I rub the whole instrument with amber / yellow first, then add the darker colors to the edges, right over the amber. This will blend the colors, and gives it its unique look. If you are not careful, it can end up looking blotchy, especially on spruce. Some of the blotches can be corrected by rubbing them with just alcohol. If you wet the spruce with alcohol before you rub the dyes on, blotching becomes less of a problem. Remember to always rub from the lighter towards the darker areas, or you'll make a royal mess. Practice the whole procedure (including clear coats) on scraps a lot first, and you will see. The first instructions I read on the subject were in Siminoff's "Bluegrass mandolin" book, and that is basically how I do it, but as they say, many way to skin that cat. |
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| Author: | Andy Birko [ Mon Aug 15, 2011 5:12 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Sunbursting Anxiety |
Arnt Rian wrote: It depends on the look you prefer. I'd say it goes beyond that though into ability to execute as well. Rubbing dye directly into wood can have very "unpredictable" results to the uninitiated. Having seen excellent examples of hand rubbed bursts, I know it's possible to do a good job however, it's not necessarily the best idea for someone with burst anxiety. Specifically if you make a mistake with a spray over sealer, it's a very simple mater to wipe or scrape or sand and start over without significantly losing back or top thickness. With a rubbed dye job, it may not be possible to sand back enough to fix a mistake. I'll submit this example - in the picture below, I wanted to do a very subtle burst basically just darkening the edges. I sprayed a very dilute dye and either alcohol or water mix (can't remember) and this one particular piece had a bunch of pores that sucked up the dye and concentrated it. These pictures are after I sanded out as much as I dare. Ultimately, you can still see the spots in that instrument*. I've also had a gun spatter on a burst over sealer and all I needed to do to fix it was wipe off the spatter and move on. I agree that the rubbed look is different but I'll also say that it's certainly harder to control the final result and takes more experience to do a good job. * Admittedly, the wood in the picture is basswood and not maple which has a different grain structure. Basswood is not known for having big pores. Unfortunately, you don't know exactly how a wood will absorb pores until it's too late. |
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| Author: | Arnt Rian [ Mon Aug 15, 2011 6:32 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Sunbursting Anxiety |
Only Dave can decide which method sounds more intimidating to him, as it is easy enough to make a disappointing looking 'burst with any method.  I say find the look that you like best, and start practicing that. Of course there is a learning curve, and the risk is definitely higher without the sealer, but with a little practice, the results become less "unpredictable".
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| Author: | Dave Livermore [ Mon Aug 15, 2011 9:36 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Sunbursting Anxiety |
I think the first burst I did, I sealed with shellac and then sprayed alcohol dyed right onto the shellac, thinking it would burn it. The result was ok at best. What I did with the straight dye in alcohol the other night turned out a hundred times better. I still don't have things black as night around the edge and grain shows through, but I'm not entirely upset with that look either. The picture is sealed up after the dye was sprayed and it darkened things up nicely. Thanks for the comments and suggestions. We'll see what happens when I get back in the shop tomorrow. |
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| Author: | Andy Birko [ Mon Aug 15, 2011 11:45 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Sunbursting Anxiety |
Dave Livermore wrote: I think the first burst I did, I sealed with shellac and then sprayed alcohol dyed right onto the shellac, thinking it would burn it. I would recommend spraying dyed finish instead of straight thinner. Seems to stick where you want it better. If you're spraying 100% thinner over finish, it's very easy to get runs. Guess how I know that .
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