Official Luthiers Forum!

I'm looking to improve the documentation process for my builds to something a little more organized and detailed. Anybody have a suggestion? Examples of, say, Excel templates, Word documents, etc, would be helpful for ideas if that's what you use. What information do you find helpful to track from build to build? Do you recommend a computerized format? Hard copies? Both?

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Wes McMillian
Santo, TX
http://www.wesmcmillian.com

What's wrong with a notebook and a pencil on the bench? You may have different data/comments you want to enter for every single build. Limiting yourself to a spreadsheet or a formated template will make you want to skip what's perhaps the most interesting to document.

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Laurent Brondel
West Paris, Maine - USA
http://www.laurentbrondel.com/

I do both...a spreadsheet with a lot of specs (thicknesses, bracing / neck details, weights etc etc.) so I have something to compare guitar to guitar....and also a notebook in the shop for methods that worked/didn't, or any other relavent comments.

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Dave
Milton, ON

I wish I had the discipline to take notes on everything that I have done and am doing.
That said, I do agree that a notebook on the bench would be the best, immediate solution. Your notes could then be transcribed into any given number of software solutions along with pictures.
David

could anyone who uses a spreadsheet like Dave, offer to put this up so all can see, use, and alter?

I am with you here Laurent.

I find it much easier and more practical to keep a small spiral notebook on the bench for each build rather than leave the bench to go to the computer and type in info. I label each spiral notebook with the serial# of that build. Every thing that goes well or difficult a long with statistical info gets recorded.

If you don't keep your computer right there on the bench with you, you have to jot notes down anyway. I know if I was keeping my build logs on the computer I probably would not list little notes like

”I had hard time pulling curly Koa binding into waist of this MJ. I must remember to over bend the waist a tad. I took the binding to pipe and added a tad more depth to the bend."

It is easy to record top thickness and other statistical info like that after the fact. But "at the moment" thoughts, conflicts and conflict resolutions of past builds are often as important as the statistic information.

I have several pages made up where I can fill in measurements and notes and weights etc... stored in the computer. Before each build I print this out and staple it together and it stays on the main clipboard in the shop as I work. It allows me to just fill in the things I am tracking with plenty of room for notes and things to remember. There are pages for chladni data also and I take tracings of the top and back bracing with detailed thicknesses. Once the guitar is sent out this gets put into a binder but all of the hard data could easily be entered into a spreadsheet to easier compare instruments in that way.

Another thing which I have found helpful is to save every offcut in a large envelope also. The soundboard and back cutoffs, cutoffs from the neck and binding, purfling, everything. If you ever have to come back in to repair something or shim something you can be sure it will be a perfect match. Even if you want to come back later and feel the original soundboard wood to see how your memory of it is you can do it.

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Burton
http://www.legeytinstruments.com
Brookline, MA.

I take tons of pictures and these may include posed pictures with a ruler positioned to indicate a dimension or a dial indicator. I am terrible at documenting anything and went the spread sheet route but then forgot to use it........

I keep my pictures backed up frequently and accessible via a home network from anyplace that I am.

I agree that a notebook would be better and easier but I hate clutter........

I agree Michael, & do much the same with my notes - very helpfull later when memory fades. I'll even make notes on the finishing schedule (& alchemy) for use later. But I've also got the spreadsheet on a clipboard, where I can easily take a measurement at a "flagged" point in my procedure ("top wt. @ ass'y", "top final arch", "back density" or whatever) and make note of it.
It's also nice to have all this info from previous guitars handy as you're going, to make adjustments/ stay out of trouble (eg "this top's a lot denser than last one, so I'll thin a bit more" etc
Terry, what you keep track of is up to you. For my archtops, along with the basics (materials, style, scale etc.) I track density, arch, thicknesses, weight, etc for each plate, bracing type & dimension(s), neckshape & thicknesses, nut & saddle widths etc. & a bunch of other stuff so that if I change a variable and see/hear a result, I have a prayer of making sense of it.
(for flattops, I'd be really tempted to, for example, note bracing dimensions on something like the Grellier PDF dwgs that were linked here a short time ago.)

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Dave
Milton, ON

hesh I love computing and cad-ing as you know and being an engineer I am a religious record keeper. But I hate doing something twice so my original notes are good enough for me. Plus I can read more into my state of mind at the time the notes were made form my hand notes than i can from re-enterd data on the PC. but then again I am not a decluter freak

A blog might be useful, you could then keep it private or share it with a client or the whole world.

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Tickle your guitar daily, and it'll tickle you back.

I`m with Laurent And Michael.I write it down.Any new discoveries ,any new problems.I document each step and also the time it takes to do it.This really helps on the next build.to know what your doing right and what you need to improve on.
James W B

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James W Bolan
Nashville Tennessee

I definitely agree with the need to keep a notebook on the bench - that's never going away. If I went to a computerized format, I would definitely have to keep a good "notes" section to keep track on my ramblings as I build in addition to the hard data. I do keep files on computer for each build with lots of pictures, as well. I haven't made up my mind whether to transfer the rest of this stuff to computer, just kicking it around.

Burton, I like the idea of keeping offcuts for each one in a bag or envelope. I can see after a few years where that could get pretty bulky, but could be helpful.

So what information do you find helpful to track? I keep, of course, basic dimensions of bracing, T/B/S thickness and materials (as well as the source), notes of impressions (based on feel, haven't begun any deflection testing yet - not sure if I will), finishing schedule, etc. Other ideas?

Again, any examples would be helpful!

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Wes McMillian
Santo, TX
http://www.wesmcmillian.com

I have been thinking about a better system for me to document my guitar building but truthfully the more I think about it the more I don't see a personal need to do this.......

I know this goes completely against the mainstream view here but consider this.

Much of how I build IS documented in the toots that I have done and of course all of this is committed to memory here as well.

When I brace a guitar I typically will cut bracing sets for several guitars at the same time and label them and place them in the climate controlled stash. These are bracing blanks, not carved, just sticks with my basic starting dimensions for each respective size of guitar that I currently build.

As you all know every stick is different and when carving braces for a specific and desired response there is no telling what the final dimensions will come out to be. Sure I can cookie cut my braces making them all alike and effectively assemble model airplane kits (attribution to Rick for this comment).

But beyond general dimensions for starting points with bracing and if I carve each guitar top and back for the best response that I can get given the wood, which is again all different every time, my bracing and even top thicknesses are never exactly the same.......

I think that the real value-add of a Luthier built guitar over a factory guitar is that we individually brace/voice and more our guitars for hopefully an optimal response. Where factories assemble guitars that are exactly alike using a bell curve to have some guitars turn out great, most in the middle and some dogs too.

So I ask you, beyond documenting starting points for specific dimensions for specific models and if you are individually voicing every guitar that you make what is the value in documenting anything?

I know this goes completely against the scientific method and I do see the value of documentation for future reference when one wishes to repeat an exceptional guitar - or try to. But I also wonder if documentation can limit creativity and lessen the need for builders to develop a "feel" for the wood.

Just a thought.

I don't necessarily disagree Hesh but I see it more as a why wouldn't I do it. It doesn't take much time and it may not help you, ever. But if you have not been doing it you'll never know. I want to develop a feel for the wood but I would much rather develop a feel for the wood and then be able to see through another way how those pieces of wood I chose as special are similar. Not an either/or but a big +.

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Burton
http://www.legeytinstruments.com
Brookline, MA.

Good points Burton and I agree completely.

Personally I take little notes, preferring to emphasize memory. As a matter of fact, I got better at not forgetting…
Notes for a build typically take no more than a page. I note materials list (and typically top and B&S suppliers), plate thicknesses, comments on stiffness in both directions & esoteric comments on tone/feel of the plates, and specifics of the build if any (bracing, laminations etc.). I always note nut/bridge spacing dimensions, FB radius, keep a full chart of neck dimensions (FB taper and neck thickness at 1st, 3rd, 5th, 7th and 11th fret) and comments on the neck material density and weight. That's about it for me. I can't think of entering that stuff on the computer and often forget to take pictures. Life is too short.

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Laurent Brondel
West Paris, Maine - USA
http://www.laurentbrondel.com/

I think that taking notes is helpful. I just use a regular notebook and my written notes are fairly minimal. I do like to document the bracing thoroughly, though. I take a good set of measurements and also make a fairly large sketch of the bracing so that I can locate the peaks of the scallops (if scalloped), heights at different distances from the main 'X', etc. I record specs of each guitar and weights of different parts such as the bridge.

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Jim Howell
Charlotte, NC

Useful for comparing builds and determining "what" makes one guitar sound/feel better, or rather slightly different, than another one. Also useful for determining the effect of stiffness and bracing on tone and response for the tops / backs. It's highly elusive, of course, and much easier when only one change at a time is carried on each build.

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Laurent Brondel
West Paris, Maine - USA
http://www.laurentbrondel.com/

Good question to present Filippo

Of course I want mechanical statistics in my notes but for me more important during my development was the technical mistakes and individual wood issues I ran into. I found two things happened when I recorded building issues and mistakes.

First was writing down the fact I made that mistake quickly eliminated making the same mistake again. But maybe more important than that taking the time to write down notes on difficulties and mistakes slowed me down a tad in the early stages of my development. That in its self bore significant value in the early stages of learning this craft.

Some times the time taken to record notes is well used in the thought process when dealing with build issues. This may be more important in the long run for the time out it provides rather than the traceability for future reference.

The act of noting things on paper helps lock them into memory - it's always been like that for me, and the reason I very rarely actually go back over notes I've taken, whether on a lecture or guitarmaking notes. Most of my 'notes' are a variety of sketches, measurements, doodles, etc. I make before building everything. It's something I can do on the couch, while watching TV, on the bus/train/plane, no need for tools or guitars. It helps fuel the process of visualising what needs to be done and how the geometry fits together, and provides me with better results. I don't tend to use full plans - I do my own shapes, and plot out bracing layout and soundhole layout, but the rest is more of a 'these dimensions here' (end block, heel block, etc).

I find that I do use my bracing notes quite a bit. I'm new enough at this building thing that keeping track of changes is about the only way I can keep track of changes!

I'm still in search of the tone that I hear in my head and should I find it one day, I'd like to be able to repeat the find.

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Jim Howell
Charlotte, NC

I bought a copy of Bouchet's book on guitar building, which is really a set of his build notes and drawings in his own hand from his bench notebook. It is really a great book, but I wish I knew some French, because the whole thing is in French. Some of it, however, is self explanatory, just from his drawings. Not cheap, but a really neat book.

Here's what the Guitars International site says about it.
"Cahier d'atelier, la construction d'une guitare classique (édition en fac-similé) Robert Bouchet

This is a facsimile reproduction of the bench notebook of the great French guitar maker, Robert Bouchet. The facsimile edition lays out in detail Bouchet's method of construction. It also. includes a biographical article and notes by fellow French master, Daniel Friederich. The text is in French."

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Waddy

Photobucket Build Album Library

Sound Clips of most of my guitars

I keep a journal on the workbench as well. I write down things like the specs of the neck (in case somebody comes up and asks "can you make my neck just like _________?" I also write down dates, finish schedules, top/back thickness, and any other notes I find pertinent, like what type of glue was used and where (in case I need to refer to this at a later date).

One other thing I do is keep the soundhole cutout on each guitar. I write the #, and who it went to on it with a sharpie.

It's not all-inclusive, but I am getting better at good note taking.

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Brad Tucker

I'm like most of you in that I take notes as I go and write down specs,
draw and scribble pictures,and just keep track of the build with any changes
in technique that I try. I keep a folder for each guitar and save the cutouts for any
future repairs that might come up too.

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Anderson Guitars
Clearwater,Fl. 33755