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Anybody out there who has experience and who can recommend a meter that is accurate and repeatable in the under $200 range? This would be used to measure and track wood moisture from the time of its harvesting throughout its drying cycle to final usage.

TIA

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JJ
Napa, CA
http://www.DonohueGuitars.com

I've been happy with my Wagner pinless. Not sure of the curent price. But accuracy can depend on thickness, species (density mainly). How thick at harvest? If thickness stays the same during your process, repeatability may matter more than calibration.

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Howard Klepper
http://www.klepperguitars.com

When all else fails, clean the shop.

My understanding is that moisture meters don't really work on thin woods like guitar stock. I've heard you can stack it up and get an average reading though. If someone knows this to be incorrect please correct me.

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Jim Watts
http://jameswattsguitars.com

I'm more interested in evaluating boards that are typically 1" to 3" in thickness.

Howard...do you happen to know your Wagner's model #?

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JJ
Napa, CA
http://www.DonohueGuitars.com

JJ,
I use a Wagner pinless meter too and have been very happy with it.
Check out the Wagner meters MMC 220 and MMC 205. I bought mine at Woodworker's Supply.
Hope this helps.

Stephen

Steve...I just checked out those models that you recommended. These units seem to be popular in the sites where they deal more with ready-to-build wood. Thanks for the info...The pinless units might be more useful in 1-3 years once the planks have been air dried and surfaced.

Todd...as usual, you deliver more answers than I have questions. I really appreciate and always learn a lot of new info when you chime in. And as you assumed, I'm more interested in rough-sawn wood coming directly from the sawmill as 4/4, 8/4 and 12/4 planks. Based upon your recommendation, I'll stick more to those pin-type meters for now.

You may recall the thread I started about 2 months ago where my brother in Western PA is harvesting Walnut, Cherry, Maple, Oak and other species from his property. Since that time, he has sawn up and stickered about 3,000 BF and adding to the pile every week. He had been using a local sawyer who processes logs using a large vertical rotary blade which leaves a very rough surface. Recently he switched to a guy who uses a WoodMizer horizontal band saw setup and the surface is considerably smoother...and as an added bonus, because the kerf is significantly thinner, he actually yields more wood and less sawdust. So, we're learning something new every day since the start of the project.

In light of our collective inexperience, feel free to chime in on any other suggestions...moisture-related or otherwise. My bro and I are kinda learning this by the seat of our pants for now. What's really scary is that he looks to me for advice...so far, I've caused no harm! The good news is that there is a year or 2 while the planks are drying to learn more and decide on future actions.

On the moisture issue, it seems like we now have a lot more info to make a better-informed decision on which direction to go. Thanks for everyone's help.

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JJ
Napa, CA
http://www.DonohueGuitars.com

You can always just keep putting the same piece of wood on a decent scale every couple of months. When it stops losing weight, it is air-dried.

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Howard Klepper
http://www.klepperguitars.com

When all else fails, clean the shop.

I do not know if this helps, but rather than going for a moisture meter, I simply use a very nice (but older and cheaper) large scale ohm meter that can measure up to a giga-ohm and applies a large voltage potential across the wood base. You might be able to pick something like it up on ebay. I then can compare my resistance results to generalized or specific moisture tables experiementally determined and available around the web...

Stephen

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www.ziegenfussguitars.com

I have a Wagner pinless and have used it for years. Like it much better than the pin type I had before.
Rough stock can be hand planed in a matter of seconds in a small area big enough to use the meter on. The trouble with pinless is you don't want to hammer in a couple of pins in the middle of a board so you do it on the ends which are usually drier or wetter than the middle. With both you are getting a idea, but with the pinnless you can make a lot of readings all over the board and average it as Todd had said.

Todd, it is my understanding that my pinless meter reads to 3/4". On thinner stock I might be reading the bench under the meter. There for the pinless would be better on stock closer to 1 1/2" thick or thicker. I would be reading the center of the board at that point. Is this not the case ? I have always got funny readings on thinner stock unless I stacked the stock.
Link

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Cut to size.....Beat to fit.....Paint to match.

One other thing I just remembered is that another advantage of pinless is there is no need for temp. compensation.

O.k. I just talked to Wagner and the pinless meters are best used with thicker lumber, not thinner. If under 3/4" you can stack the wood. If you lay it on something it will read the wood and what is under it. They average the wood over 0 to 3/4" . On a 2" thick slab you can get a pretty good reading by doing both sides.
With any moisture meter you are not getting absolutes just adding to your information that goes along with knowing the woods history, how it was stored etc. Watching the wood, seeing how it behaves , what does it do when you saw a piece. Comparing a piece of wood to wood you have in the shop that you know how long it has been in a certain enviornment etc. You develope a "feel" for wood. The only absolute way to measure moisture is to weight it, dry it, weight it as Howard sugguested.
Link

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Cut to size.....Beat to fit.....Paint to match.

Here's the issue...these 8' boards are stickered and stacked. I would like to be able to evaluate a few in each stack without un-stacking...therefore checking the sides and end grain. Periodically, I can see where it will be necessary to restack (flipping top to bottom and reversing the order of the stack). At that time, I can see where a more extensive moisture evaluation can be made. Planing a spot so as to use a pinless meter makes a lot of sense...good suggestion.

The weighing method seems a bit tedious for slabs this size and weight unless I'm missing something.

I now have a copy of that publication and will study it...thanks, Todd.

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JJ
Napa, CA
http://www.DonohueGuitars.com

Correction...I just read the chapter on moisture and it shows that Cherry, for example may have as much as 60% moisture which could very well be an effective method to evaluate the same board over time as Howard suggested.

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JJ
Napa, CA
http://www.DonohueGuitars.com

Hi JJ,
I have dried a lot of wood from tree to furniture making stage.
I am assuming you are air drying.
You did say you wanted to measure from harvest to finish. So you won't always have the wood stacked in thick planks. When you first harvest you know what the wood is at moisture wise. In the intial drying when the wood is in slabs it is a gross type of thing not a fine thing.
(again if air drying. If kiln drying it is a very fine thing ) You can guess moisture based on time and thickness of wood. You can find out what the average EMC is for air dried wood in your area. For example you can know that if your wood is 2" thick and you have stickered it and stored it properly after 2 1/2 years it will have dried about as much as it going to outside. It will gain and lose moisture with the seasons but it is about as dry as it will get without moving it to a controled humidity indoors. You can make a pretty good guess at the woods EMC. Again you can know after a certain amount of time in a certain temp. and humidity what the wood is doing. At this point you can cut the slab to smaller pieces and start to use the meter. For this I would recomend the pinless.
If you are doing this as a business and need to maximize your efforts in time and yield then you need more specialized equipment than a single meter for under $200. You have a advatage in that you know when the wood was cut and how it was treated. You could easily bring your wood to guitar building stage without a moisture meter at all ! The moisture meter is really useful when you get wood from some other source and are trying to find out where it is at. I am not saying to not get one, just giving you more information to make your decision. The meter is a useful tool for sure. Hope this helps.
Link

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Cut to size.....Beat to fit.....Paint to match.

This has been an Interesting education and twist on my original intent.

Link...your assumption on where this wood will be for the next year or so is correct. In that case, I suppose it falls into the gross measurement category until then. Here's a pic when this venture started a few months ago.



It is a 3-sided steel building where the boards will reside for the next 1 to 2 years. I can imagine some of this wood being diverted to tonewood but much of it will find its way to where it makes the best business sense. By the time the wood is grossly air-dried, I can foresee a humidity controlled building being available for the finer drying and acclimatization. And at that time, I suppose the question of type of moisture meter to procure will be a more relevant issue.

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JJ
Napa, CA
http://www.DonohueGuitars.com

JJ,
That looks excellent. Looks as if you have all the ends painted and everything stickered well ! I would sugguest you move the stickers a few inches after the first 3 months or so and then again in another 6 months. Helps to avoid sticker stain which can go all the way through a board. Don't use woods like pine on freshly cut wood for stickers. The moisture will react and stain the wood and as I said go all the way through a board. ( I hate that )
One other thing, when drying wood expect a fair amount of loss, it just happens, it's wood. Your set up looks about as good as possible to reduce loss. Drying your own wood is a bit like making your own guitars. Sometimes it is cheaper but most of the time by the time you figure your labor, waste, etc. it is better or cheaper to buy wood where someone else has eaten the loss and waste, dealt with the storage, bugs, etc. Doing your own wood has rewards other than $ such as getting something unique and the satisfaction of taking the wood from tree or raw stage to a finished product. Doing this for $ takes a lot of volume to make it work and it is a huge, huge amount of work.
I will warn you it can become a disease. I still have incurable wood lust and I have piles of wood waiting to be made into something. I should sell some but with this disease it is very hard to do that.
On a another but related note, while I think it is not that $ efficient to dry your own I do think it is very $ efficent to cut your own guitar wood if you already have the equipment. That is buy a nice plank (dry plank) and cut back and sides, necks, etc. Save a lot of money that way, again if you already have the equipment.
Best,
Link

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Cut to size.....Beat to fit.....Paint to match.

Good info, Link. On the sticker issue...can you recommend the best material and sizes based on your experience?

I appreciate your frank opinion as to the amount of work, waste and other issues. The main issue in this venture right now is the fact that 90% of the logs that my bro will be harvesting are essentially free. He's in no hurry to capitalize on this...nor to invest significantly in capital right now. I would expect that within a year, he will be at a major decision point...to sell off the inventory or to invest in equipment and further refine the wood. In the meantime, he will certainly get a taste of hard work in felling trees, sawing and stacking slabs.

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JJ
Napa, CA
http://www.DonohueGuitars.com

Good stash of cherry there, JJ! You'll get plenty of air through that lot!

JJ,
3/4" seems to be about the min. thickness for enough air flow. The more the merrier. Want lots of air circulation. So 3/4" x 1" to 1 1/2" wide for a stable sticker and enough to spread the load. Doug fir is pretty good, fir ply works ok. Birch is good. 3/4" polyethelene cut into strips is really good.
With your situation I would start high grading these logs and at the very least get yourself a nice stash. I am a big fan of flitch cut logs myself. For furniture this is really great to make piece from the same log. I would most definitely flitch cut the spiecal logs. 2 1/4" thick to 2 1/2" slices. Just because industry cuts at 3/4" and 1 1/2" doesn't mean you have to. Harder to dry those thicker planks but worth it. Split any plank with the center pith in it as it will split anyway.
Link

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Cut to size.....Beat to fit.....Paint to match.