I would sit on it. I feel like we have seen too many of those guitars. But that is just my opinion.
Roll it out when everyone has just about forgotten about it.
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| Tone and saleability of SUPER quilted sapele? https://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=18037 |
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| Author: | LanceK [ Fri Jul 18, 2008 7:02 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Tone and saleability of SUPER quilted sapele? |
Hi Guys! There have been a few guitars made from that super duper quilted sapele. I think John Kinnaird did one, and a few others here. Well anyways, I am starting my Healdsburg 09 guitars soon and I was wondering what is the "sale" ability of the Quilted Sapele and also what are your thoughts on its tone? Thanks |
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| Author: | Brock Poling [ Fri Jul 18, 2008 7:11 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Tone and saleability of SUPER quilted sapele? |
I would sit on it. I feel like we have seen too many of those guitars. But that is just my opinion. Roll it out when everyone has just about forgotten about it.
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| Author: | DYeager [ Fri Jul 18, 2008 7:52 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Tone and saleability of SUPER quilted sapele? |
So, Brock, you're working on one right now? Dan |
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| Author: | JJ Donohue [ Fri Jul 18, 2008 8:21 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Tone and saleability of SUPER quilted sapele? |
Lance... I made a 000-12 fret with Adi and it is the Zootman's favorite. Interesting... when I tapped this in the unfinished state the "brain-salad Sapele" sounded like cardboard! It began to resonate after it soaked up ZPoxy like a sponge. The finished guitar has a wonderful sound...and that's one reason why I personally minimize the importance of B&S woods' contribution to tone.  Let the debate begin! 
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| Author: | John Mayes [ Fri Jul 18, 2008 8:31 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Tone and saleability of SUPER quilted sapele? |
I agree with Brock. Cause he's brilliant, handsome, and spot on for this one.... |
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| Author: | peterm [ Fri Jul 18, 2008 8:47 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Tone and saleability of SUPER quilted sapele? |
John Mayes wrote: I agree with Brock. Cause he's brilliant, handsome, and spot on for this one.... ..... and then there's John Mayes! 
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| Author: | Hesh [ Fri Jul 18, 2008 8:48 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Tone and saleability of SUPER quilted sapele? |
Brock Poling wrote: I would sit on it. Yeah and probably less splinters in your bum than sitting on ziricote or snake wood......  John Mayes wrote: I agree with Brock. Cause he's brilliant, handsome, and spot on for this one.... Well two out of three is not bad....... 
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| Author: | Don Williams [ Fri Jul 18, 2008 9:11 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Tone and saleability of SUPER quilted sapele? |
I think you should build with it immediately. Don't wait. It's getting better returns than Brazilian. (cherry) You should use it, and in fact everyone who has it should use it all up. That way my half dozen sets are the only ones left. |
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| Author: | Don Williams [ Fri Jul 18, 2008 9:13 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Tone and saleability of SUPER quilted sapele? |
JJ Donohue wrote: Lance... I made a 000-12 fret with Adi and it is the Zootman's favorite. Interesting... when I tapped this in the unfinished state the "brain-salad Sapele" sounded like cardboard! It began to resonate after it soaked up ZPoxy like a sponge. The finished guitar has a wonderful sound...and that's one reason why I personally minimize the importance of B&S woods' contribution to tone. Let the debate begin! Heh-heh...... so think how much better a good rosewood would be when impregnated with epoxy!
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| Author: | Howard Klepper [ Fri Jul 18, 2008 10:43 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Tone and saleability of SUPER quilted sapele? |
Back in '05, when a bunch of the super raised quilt log was around, Paul Woolson made one of it and brought it to Healdsburg. He put it on his table with the back facing out. Hel told me that everyone asked what kind of wood it was, and no one seemed to consider buying it. Brock no doubt remembers this. I'm sitting on a set of it until it has more legendary status. Like "The Tree." [too bad that name is already taken] The best quilt shows on flatsawn pieces, and like a lot of flatsawn wood, the tap tone is not inspiring. Which is not to say a great guitar can't be made of it, but the appeal is going to be for unique bling. |
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| Author: | David Collins [ Fri Jul 18, 2008 11:14 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Tone and saleability of SUPER quilted sapele? |
I suppose this is counter-intuitive, but I've actually found a preference for soft, big leaf maple in acoustic back and sides. I've not done any tests or controlled builds, but over the years I've found myself drawn more to the tone of instruments with wide curl or quilted soft maple than their birdseye or fiddleback rock maple counterparts. Don't know how to explain it more than that - it surprised me when I started to realize how consistent my preferences were with these woods, but I just like them. As to current value, I wouldn't be surprised if it added more value to an electric guitar as a top than to an acoustic guitar as back and sides. |
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| Author: | Matt Mustapick [ Fri Jul 18, 2008 11:25 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Tone and saleability of SUPER quilted sapele? |
Regarding tone, it's mahogany. |
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| Author: | RodN [ Sat Jul 19, 2008 6:21 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Tone and saleability of SUPER quilted sapele? |
David Collins wrote: I've actually found a preference for soft, big leaf maple in acoustic back and sides. I've not done any tests or controlled builds, but over the years I've found myself drawn more to the tone of instruments with wide curl or quilted soft maple than their birdseye or fiddleback rock maple counterparts. Don't know how to explain it more than that - it surprised me when I started to realize how consistent my preferences were with these woods, but I just like them. I tend to agree with you about the tone of instruments with a wide curl or quilt. I haven't yet worked with the tight curly stuff although I am about to with a couple of sets of mahogany that I have just bought. My feeling is that a tight curl can give a more brittle and glassy tone. This one of mine, bigleaf maple with a quilt, was built for me to my specifications. It still has a Maple overtone to it, but softer than fiddleback maple. In addition I specified an Engelmann top to soften the "maple" sound out even further, and the result is a very creamy sound. Rod 
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| Author: | Lars Stahl [ Sat Jul 19, 2008 7:27 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Tone and saleability of SUPER quilted sapele? |
For once I can make a reply from experience "but limited haha"! As a musician with LOTS of musician friends in the "working" industry of music, I would say, a musician picks up an instrument "in a store this is" by 1. apperance, 2. he listen to the tone, if its beautiful AND has a beautiful tone, he goes for it, no matter what its made of. So, if the quilted sapele can be made to have a wonderful tone, AND beat the competition, look as beautiful as the tone, then it will be sold. Lars. |
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| Author: | Brock Poling [ Sat Jul 19, 2008 7:45 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Tone and saleability of SUPER quilted sapele? |
skinnysteel wrote: For once I can make a reply from experience "but limited haha"! As a musician with LOTS of musician friends in the "working" industry of music, I would say, a musician picks up an instrument "in a store this is" by 1. apperance, 2. he listen to the tone, if its beautiful AND has a beautiful tone, he goes for it, no matter what its made of. So, if the quilted sapele can be made to have a wonderful tone, AND beat the competition, look as beautiful as the tone, then it will be sold. Lars. Yeah, but that moonscape stuff will probably carry a fairly significant upcharge and that is where things start getting tougher. |
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| Author: | Brock Poling [ Sat Jul 19, 2008 7:49 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Tone and saleability of SUPER quilted sapele? |
David Collins wrote: I suppose this is counter-intuitive, but I've actually found a preference for soft, big leaf maple in acoustic back and sides. I've not done any tests or controlled builds, but over the years I've found myself drawn more to the tone of instruments with wide curl or quilted soft maple than their birdseye or fiddleback rock maple counterparts. Don't know how to explain it more than that - it surprised me when I started to realize how consistent my preferences were with these woods, but I just like them. As to current value, I wouldn't be surprised if it added more value to an electric guitar as a top than to an acoustic guitar as back and sides. I agree, I have always liked big leaf maple. I think it builds very nice well balanced guitars... but the market just won't get off the idea that all maple guitars are "bright". I am planning on taking a maple guitar to HGF next year. I know it isn't the best idea, but I am doing it anyway.  I think we have all done ourselves a great disservice by overgeneralizing the effect of tonewoods on guitars... but I suppose that is a different topic, for a different time. |
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| Author: | Howard Klepper [ Sat Jul 19, 2008 3:29 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Tone and saleability of SUPER quilted sapele? |
Brock Poling wrote: I think we have all done ourselves a great disservice by overgeneralizing the effect of tonewoods on guitars... but I suppose that is a different topic, for a different time. I thought in this thread we were generalizing the effect of tonewoods on guitar sales. |
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| Author: | Brock Poling [ Sat Jul 19, 2008 3:48 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Tone and saleability of SUPER quilted sapele? |
Howard Klepper wrote: Brock Poling wrote: I think we have all done ourselves a great disservice by overgeneralizing the effect of tonewoods on guitars... but I suppose that is a different topic, for a different time. I thought in this thread we were generalizing the effect of tonewoods on guitar sales. Yeah, but that is less likely to come back and bite us in the butt. 
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| Author: | bob_connor [ Sat Jul 19, 2008 6:52 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Tone and saleability of SUPER quilted sapele? |
Brock Poling wrote: I agree, I have always liked big leaf maple. I think it builds very nice well balanced guitars... but the market just won't get off the idea that all maple guitars are "bright". Maple and light coloured guitars are difficult to sell in Australia Brock, but for a totally different reason - I think. In a discussion with 4 or 5 well known luthiers at a festival earlier in the year they all revealed that it was nigh on impossible to sell a light coloured instrument ie Maple - unless the purchaser was female. It appears blokes in Australia prefer brunettes to blondes. We had a Native Olive dread on our stand which was light in colour and it was the one guitar that attracted the women. The blokes all went for the Blackwood and Ziricote. Most of the customers who are willing to fork out the bucks for a custom instrument are pretty reasonable players but they are definitely making visual decisions before picking up an instrument and giving it an aural appraisal. Cheers Bob |
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| Author: | Larry Davis [ Sat Jul 19, 2008 8:35 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Tone and saleability of SUPER quilted sapele? |
Bob, Queensland maple is a light colored wood, is this an exception to the observations? Can it go both ways? |
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| Author: | bob_connor [ Sun Jul 20, 2008 1:00 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Tone and saleability of SUPER quilted sapele? |
Same colour as Mahogany or darker Larry. The blokes I was discussing this with were using EIR, Blackwood, I think Joe Gallacher was using a lot of Khaya but stained to much the same spec as Martin. Maton use a bit of it, some of it they leave natural. In days gone by I reckon they used stain on it and the wood was darker - more of a reddy colour to it. Qld Maple is not all that common down here and like a lot of woods becoming more difficult to source. Bob |
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| Author: | Kevin Gallagher [ Sun Jul 20, 2008 7:45 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Tone and saleability of SUPER quilted sapele? |
My experience with the heavily quilted Sapele is that it is great looking and not as great sounding. I love mahogany paired with any top wood with few exceptions, but Quilted Sapele is one of those exceptions. I'm a big believer that back and side woods make major contributions to the tone of a guitar and feel that all of the wonderful sets used in great Rosewood and Mahogany guitars over the many years that they've been used have proven their contributing ability. You just can't build a Mahogany guitar that will possibly capture the harmonic proportions and the dark, thick bottom of a Rosewood guitar just as you can never get that dry woody fundamentally driven punch of Mahogany with Rosewood and it's the back and sides that make that phenomenon true and obvious. Many of the woods that have become popular have done so more as a result of their appearance than their tone. I've had guys come looking for the striking appearance of Koa only to describe their goal tone as having characteristics that Koa can never deliver...in any guitar....from any builder. I really believe that the same is true of the back and sides contributing to the resale value of a guitar. Some are sought after and others are not. Even the most striking Koa, Quilted Sapele, or Flamed Maple guitars will sit for what seem to be very long times until a person who is looking for their tone comes across them....no matter how radically figured they are. I have a dozen or so really wildly quilted sets of beautiful Sapele and don;t know if they'll ever turn into guitars. The quilt in this wood has more of an effect on tone than it has in other woods that I've used with similar levels of crazy figure. Regards, Kevin Gallagher/Omega Guitars |
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| Author: | phil [ Mon Jul 21, 2008 1:58 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Tone and saleability of SUPER quilted sapele? |
sounds to me like you're best off saving your fancy wood for an ordered guitar rather than a spec one - unless you want to risk sitting on the finished guitar for a long time. i haven't been at one of these big guitar shows before, but based on everything i've read here, it seems like bringing along a guitar with eir b/s (about $100) would have a very good chance of selling and paying for the trip. maybe bring along a few well taken pictures of the really blingy wood you've got in your stash. that might be a better way to get your money out of such expensive wood. phil |
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