Official Luthiers Forum!

Hi all.

A customer brought his Gibson in to repair the scratched top. It happened while changing strings about 5 years ago. Since then it seems that some discoloration appeared within the scratch. Here's what I plan to do:

- First off test if the finish is nitro, but I'm pretty sure it is (Gibson 15 years old...)
- Sand down the scratch until I get to the bear wood.
- Then I'll see if the top 'yellowed out' during the years, although it doesn't seem to have yellowed out much. If so apply a coat or two of shellac to bring back some yellow. (The customer knows that there is a good chance the repair will show).
- Brush down a few coats of laquer.
- Sand and buff.

You can see in the attached picture what the scratch looks like.

If any of you think I have it wrong, or maybe would go a different path, please let me know!

Thanks!

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Alain Moisan
Former full time builder of Acoustics, Classicals and Flamencos.
(Now building just for fun!)

Alain;
You might want to soften the finish with thinner or the stuff Stew-Mac used to supply to melt the finish back together.
Then spot repair the finish !

Sanding to the wood may really cause an unsightly repair.

Just a thought
mike

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Mike Collins

Thanks Mike.

Good thinking about applying thinner first. It won't hurt to try anyway!

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Alain Moisan
Former full time builder of Acoustics, Classicals and Flamencos.
(Now building just for fun!)

It's so easy to open up a big can of worms with little cosmetic touchups like this. Ghost lines, air bubbles, shrinkage, sand throughs - sometimes it goes fine, but there are just so many complications that can potentially come up that quickly turn it in to a spiraling loss. Going down to bare wood would be a definite no-no in my book, as trying to feather in a new lacquer finish to an old one is going to look terrible unless you're Michelangelo (or Tom Marcel). It always seems so simple, but it isn't.

My policy is simple - I offer no cosmetic repairs unless they are directly linked to a structural repair I am working on. I go through a lot less stress and lose a lot less money this way.

If that came in to my shop I would simply turn it away. Assure them it does not effect the tone, playability, or structural stability of the instrument. Plus if it were to be repaired there is an incredible power to Murphy's Law here - within a few weeks it seems nearly guaranteed that equal or worse nick will come along. If they were persistent, you should quote for worst case scenario - removing the neck and bridge, refinishing the top, resetting the neck with heel touchup, regluing the bridge, and reinstalling the pick guard. About $800-$1000. Seriously.

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Eschew obfuscation, espouse elucidation.

Wise man

Alain,

I have to agree with David and MichaelP on this one. These often simple touch-ups can become your worst nightmare in an instant. I myself do not do cosmetic touch-ups any more. It seems more often than not that some little thing will lead to another, etc. etc.
These are just superficial scratchs that do not affect the sound or structure, best to leave them alone.
If they want the guitar to look like new, then quote on a top refinish, because you could very well end up there.

Cal

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Remember, there are no stupid questions, only stupid answers!

Sand down to bare wood? No, no, no, no! You will turn a scratch into a gaping wound. Take David's advice and first do no harm. Then do nothing.

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Howard Klepper
http://www.klepperguitars.com

When all else fails, clean the shop.

I'm glad I'm not the only one who has this attitude on cosmetic repairs. I don't do em either, unless part of a structural repair. It takes lots of time, and never ever looks as good as new.


If your client really wants something done, you can try some Behlen's 2 minute touchup applied carefully to the scratch with a thin brush. Then you can drop fill the crack with the same method. This would still be noticeable, it just wouldn't be a scratch.

I am in the same boat as David and Howard.... the same scratched up, dinged up boat. But it floats great
Best, Evan

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http://www.NewYorkGuitarRepair.com

I would take David's advice too. Advise the client that it is very likely that an attempted "spot repair" will inevitably look worse than the scratch itself. The correct repair is to remove the bridge, neck, guard (if it has one) take the top back to wood and finish the whole top. Big can of worms. not a small repair. You have to ask yourself, is it worth it to dis-assemble this guitar for a scratch?
Even if you were able to pull off a decent spot job, the repair will return (witness) sooner or later and may look worse.

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jw ( o)===:::

Absolutely, dont go anywhere near it mate, best left.
If he has doubts let him know that you most likely could make it invisible for now but in 5-10 yrs time it'll become very visible again and be far uglier than if it was just left.

I totally agree with the quote for a full refinish and warn against anyone picking the scab so to speak. its not like a car.
my wife put my one pristine guitar in the rack and put a 4 inch scratch in the back of it. When i showed her she almost cried, but i was ok with it! I say live with it, its an instrument, so play it.

if i personally put a scratch in a customers guitar i might try and mess with it, but i'd fully expect to be on a hiding to nothing.
hope you havent sanded it back yet man

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www.theguitarrepairworkshop.com

And it will just get another blemish in the future, anyway.

Thanks for the advice guys.

I'm still not sure what will happen with this, but I'm far from turning this job away, dispite what you guys feel. I'll start by contacting my client and make sure we are on the same track. I already told him it wouldn't look like new and that there might be some part of it showing up in the futur. If we are clear on this, I'll move on with the job. I've been doing business for longer than making and repairing guitars , so I believe I'm a better businessman than a luthier, and I know runing a succesfull business is all risk taking. Calculated risk but risk nonetheless.

That said, I really appreciate your input.

I'll let you know how it goes.

Thanks again!

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Alain Moisan
Former full time builder of Acoustics, Classicals and Flamencos.
(Now building just for fun!)

Hi again folks.

Well here is the update. Even though I would have liked for the repair to look a little better than that (see picture attached), it turned out better than my customer expected. So he's really happy with the result. He left me another guitar for a general setup and ajustments.

Again, even though I didn't follow your advice (for most of you), I did appreciate them.

So thanks a lot!

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Alain Moisan
Former full time builder of Acoustics, Classicals and Flamencos.
(Now building just for fun!)

So how did you finally go about the repair?

Greg

A mix of what Mike suggested and my original plan.

I used thinner first to see if the finish would melt back together and it didn't work too good. I guess that was because of the age of the scratch and the accumulated dust and whatnot within it. So I carefully 'scratched the scratches' with a rounded corner of my scraper blade in order to open up the original scratches, thus allowing the lacquer to easily flow within them. On some places, I didn't have a choice but to go all the way down to the bare wood (you can see it where the top wood is clearer). Once that was done, I applied some shellac to bring back some yellow into it. Might have needed more I guess. And lastly, I applied several coats of highly diluted lacquer in the scratches, diluting less and less the lacquer the more I applied coats, level sanding every two or three coats. Than finish sanded and buffed.

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Alain Moisan
Former full time builder of Acoustics, Classicals and Flamencos.
(Now building just for fun!)

fair play to you Alan, you did a great job!

tell me something, was it profitable/ worth doing? - it seems like it was successful either way

I'd understand if you did it at a small loss to get the guys future custom, thats what i'd have expected/ planned for.

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www.theguitarrepairworkshop.com

Thanks Curtis!

It was profitable. It took me two hours of work, so I charged two hours of work!



I don't think it is necessary to do that to get futur business with a customer. You just need to do a good job and charge a fair price. And on top it can kick right back at you; the customer might come back because of your incredibly low prices, which is not what you want in the long run...

Now that's the businesman talking, not the guitar maker...

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Alain Moisan
Former full time builder of Acoustics, Classicals and Flamencos.
(Now building just for fun!)

Good job Alain! Well done.

Greg

Good call! Everyone wins here, You get more work and the client is happy with the repair.

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jw ( o)===:::

For future reference, you might want to leave the shellac out. I can't say for certain, but it seems like the shellac would create a barrier between the original lacquer finish and the touch up lacquer. This might prevent burn-in which helps to hide lacquer repairs.

Thanks guys!



That makes sens, thanks for the tip. I had not thought of that. It didn't seem to create much problems though. We'll see how it olds over time.

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Alain Moisan
Former full time builder of Acoustics, Classicals and Flamencos.
(Now building just for fun!)

Ok, this will probably not be a very acceptable method at this forum, but I can tell you what has worked hundreds of times for luthiers all over the world: Fill the crack with CA. Go right over the seam of the crack with thin CA after taping off the top. The CA dries really hard and will sand back down to the original finish level and will be almost invisable if it shows at all. (cleaning the area as best as possible if mandatory). The CA also seems to flow the joint too. I am not positive if it actually softens the lacquer or just bonds to both sides. But anyway, I have seen things like names scratched into the finish of a guitar...and it was restored with CA. As long as the wood below has not been mared or discollored. Also on a side note, shellac is used as a sealer for lacquer quite often, so there should be no adverse affect for using the two togther.

Joe

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Joe

Strange...

It was my understanding that CA is nasty on lacquer and it should be avoided....? (Although I have not tried it myself...)

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Alain Moisan
Former full time builder of Acoustics, Classicals and Flamencos.
(Now building just for fun!)

Great fix Alain!!!
I know by your first post that you wanted to tackle the job !
Now you've fixed it to the owners delight and learned allot!


CA. in a finish crack-be careful!
it can do more harm than good SOMETIMES!!

Mike

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Mike Collins