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Rod, I'm nominating this for OLF tip of the month. It might be good enough to overturn old habits. I'm going to ty it. Thanks!

Lance, is there another "OLF tub-o-lard" we could use for a prize?

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wah
Wah-wah-wah-wah
Wah

^^^ What he said. ^^^

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I'll work on perfecting the look of the nut. I'm just happy it sounds so good. Why are curved files going to solve sitar effect?

The strings are not only used as a depth gauge while filing (on the guitar) but they are also what is holding the nut in place also while filing which would not be possible with off cuts. Remember the nut is being crafted and is not yet glued, also something taught in our classes. This method is not unique to us by the way, it's a commercial method for getting the job done efficiently.

I do use cut offs with the balls attached for slotting the bridge, top, and plate for spotless pins. And I use off cuts to lace a nut slot with first the bonding agent and then the composite dental fillings for raising a low nut slot when I need to do a durable repair with limited budget that would not justify a new nut.

I'd give Rod the lard anyway but the tip won't work again because when filing the nut top down on the guitar the strings are what's holding it in place.

I usually don't do it in the guitar...... I hold the nut in my nut vise....

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Mike when I replied to this thread it was titled "My First Perfect Nut" and now it's titled "My First Perfect (Sounding) Nut."

You moved the goal posts my friend.....

Angled slots have zero to do with resolving a sitar sound from a nut slot.

Angled slots are also as mentioned simply a style and not a requirement or superior in any way provided that the maker can make a uniform and properly sized nut slot.

What caused the sitar sound is the initial break angle of the slot is too shallow. Likely less than 3 degrees although don't quote me on that one.

Picture this Mike the vibrating wave of a string encounters the nut face in the slot and the slot angle, break angle is so very shallow that the wave travels slightly into the slot. Of course the wave physically encounters the rising to meet the string slot and there is contact. That's the Ravi Cankersore sitar sound that we hear the string contacting and then leaving the bottom of the nut slot.

Additionally this also makes the "speaking length" of the string continuously variable like my Honda's transmission only unlike my Honda there is no benefit to this and only detriment. You can see this effect with a tuner too as the reading jumps back and forth and only stabilizes when the amplitude of the vibrating wave decays to the point that the insufficient break angle is now sufficient.

A shallow break angle is the cause of that sound caused by poor filing technique.

It also can happen if there is a hump in the slot in the middle of the nut or toward the back as well. In all cases it's insufficient break angle at one location or the other and because of inconsistent and incorrect filing technique.

If you were to measure the set back angle of the head stock and divide by two on an acoustic with a conventionally designed head stock this would get you a set back angle of around 7 degrees. That's a good number but by no means the only number that will work. This is a Frank Ford lesson by the way because that's who I learned this from.

On a beater consider setting up some training wheels so to speak. Measure that 7 degrees of angle and then tape some scrap wood blocks on your neck and head stock. Use the files to cut a nut slot on a scrap nut and observe the angle of the file as dictated by the wood blocks set at 7 degrees. My bet is that when you are without blocks your file angle is WAY shallower or wanders to a shallow angle at some point and this is causing your sitar sounds.

I used to think of Nora Jones when ever I got a sitar sound but beyond that I can't think of anything desirable about a shallow nut slot.

This can be easily and quickly remedied Mike with better filing technique and a quick jig to show you what that would be.

We have nut vices but don't use them and make nuts on the instrument.

EDIT: We also cut the near final nut slot depth on the guitar accurately using the actual frets and specific curvature of that specific neck to determine nut slot depth.

My old method just climbed up a rung again.


A lot of confusion in this thread. I thought we were talking about the horizontal component of the angle to the tuner post.




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Who knows what we are talking about now. How about that College football game in A2 yesterday with Colorado!

So David is this a new SM offering this Master Luthier file set? Nice photo too!

I make a point of not talking about another guy's nuts, but I think you can't tell if it's too deep from looking at that angle.
I agree with David Farmer that Chris really meant that the top of the nut was still not low enough so that the walls of the slot are deeper than they should be. A lot of folks I know shoot for the slot heights to be roughly half the diameter of the string.

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"I want to know what kind of pickups Vince Gill uses in his Tele, because if I had those, as good of a player as I am, I'm sure I could make it sound like that.
Only badly."

Yes, I moved the goal posts to more clearly state what I meant.

Question: if I file the nut down so strings lie just exposed on nut, the treble side of nut will be lower than bass side. Right?

If everything else is right

Yes, the top of the nut will slope slightly lower from bass to treble. However, the strings should be given less exposure as you work from thick to thin, which makes the slope less noticeable. On a practical level, this helps keep the thinner strings from popping out of their slots while the player is executing bends, etc.

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George :-)

Yep what our friends Greg and George said.

The one half string proud thing is not necessary and serves no purpose as mentioned previously. But on the other hand you also don't want the slots a lot deeper than the string diameter for ascetics and with some nut materials even when the nut is cut correctly the material may close in on the string and bind in time. Synthetics on electrics are particularly prone to this closing in thing.

I filed it down and client was pleased. I don't think I'll be purchasing any of those curved files. That's just... silly? But I get the joke.

Duuuuuh... Didn't catch the curved file in the pic David, brilliant!!!!

Mike yes, sorry it took a while to answer this but yes it's often the case that just like with a saddle the nut also is lower on the treble side. This is of course a function of how low the nut slots are cut and how much string one likes embedded in the nut slot but yes the treble side is usually lower.

I have found the tips on Paul Hostetter's page about nuts to be quite good.

http://www.lutherie.net/nuts.html


I like the "horn's bell" shape of the slot, although I don't make it quite as dramatic as his illustrations show. This slot shape has worked especially well on some otherwise troublesome guitars with whammy bars etc. (excerpt from his page)


The slot itself needs to be shaped in a way that it not only fits the diameter of each individual string, but also such that the string has firm contact with the nut at the very front of the slot. This defines the end of the vibrating string length, and if it's not right, intonation will be impaired at the very least, and you may well find your string sizzling like a sitar string.

I prefer to shape my slots in the shape of a horn's bell:

The point of this is to offer a smooth surface for the string to travel from the tuning machine to the critical point of final contact at the front of the slot, where it is held firmly to define the end of the vibrating string length.

Strings have to make a compound bend at the nut, and to make tuning easiest while ensuring complete firm contact at the front of the slot, this horn bell shape makes certain the string glides smoothly, no matter the angle of approach

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