Official Luthiers Forum!

Owned and operated by Lance Kragenbrink
It is currently Wed Aug 20, 2025 9:27 am


All times are UTC - 5 hours


Forum rules


Be nice, no cussin and enjoy!




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 31 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2
Author Message
PostPosted: Sat Nov 30, 2013 8:29 pm 
Offline
Cocobolo
Cocobolo
User avatar

Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2005 6:18 am
Posts: 265
Location: United States
First name: Frank
Last Name: Ford
City: Palo Alto
State: CA
Zip/Postal Code: 94301
Country: USA
Focus: Repair
Status: Professional
Alan - that's the deal, isn't it? We spend our lives learning and practicing the craft with the goal of being able to do one-at-a-time that which was developed in the factory setting of specialized assembly process. On the other hand, what thrill is there in clearing a low bar?

_________________
Cheers,

Frank Ford

FRETS.COM
HomeShopTech
FRETS.NET


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Nov 30, 2013 8:54 pm 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2010 9:59 pm
Posts: 3626
First name: Dennis
Last Name: Kincheloe
City: Kansas City
State: MO
Country: USA
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
Alan Carruth wrote:
What Frank said: the skill level and labor involved in either a fine violin or a proper gloss finish on a guitar is about the same, they're just different skills. Personally, I'd rather make guitars that show the 'hand of the maker' in the way violins are supposed to, but the aesthetic that rules in the guitar world makes that impossible to sell.

Have you actually tried it in recent years? In the "golden age of lutherie", I'd think prominent makers like yourself would be in a position to alter history by setting a new aesthetic for everyone to copy :D

Now that my skills are getting to what I consider sale-worthy, I'm hoping to find some like-minded buyers who want something that the factories can't do. I figure I won't be selling for top dollar for a while anyway, so I may as well not sell out just yet :P


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Nov 30, 2013 10:30 pm 
Offline
Contributing Member
Contributing Member
User avatar

Joined: Thu May 12, 2005 5:46 am
Posts: 2997
Location: United States
Todd, Beautiful desk BTW!

_________________
Jim Watts
http://jameswattsguitars.com


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Dec 01, 2013 8:35 am 
Offline
Cocobolo
Cocobolo
User avatar

Joined: Sat May 12, 2007 6:11 am
Posts: 176
Location: Canada
As Jim said, impressive desk, Mr. Stock!!

Sent from my GT-P3113 using Tapatalk

_________________
Under Compensated Nut!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Dec 01, 2013 12:30 pm 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2005 12:50 pm
Posts: 3933
Location: United States
The trick, I think, is that the bar is only 'low' if you have the time, the right equipment, and are otherwise in a position to go that route. In a factory setting, where man-hours are expensive, it makes sense to set up to do it, but it's not a standard that makes sense for the one-off luthier.

One of my students did an incredible finish using Stew-Mac cans of spray lacquer, but he was already an expert with lacquer, having grown up with it, and painted custom cars and motorcycles. He'd probably sprayed more square feet of nitro by age twenty than most of us will in a lifetime. That's out of the question for me, if only because I've become so sensitive to nitro fumes over the years.

I had another student once who made sold body guitars, and had set up a legal spray booth. I don't know what the regs are where other people live, but I can say that, around here, complying with the law is not cheap. As a Damage Controlman in the Navy (a fireman aboard a floating bomb) I came realize that every safety reg out there, no matter how stupid it seems, exists because somebody died. Since then I've been strongly disposed to follow the regs. Frankly, it's not worth it to use a spray finish for the number of guitars I make in that case.

The problem is that the 'standard' finish is more or less built around the properties of things like nitro that can be applied by spraying. The standard also assumes that you're willing to build up a fair thickness of finish: Ovation's .040" of epoxy is extreme (you read that right; forty thousandths!), but even the .006" that's pretty normal in industry is more than I'd like to use. Keeping the finish under .004" calls for pretty dedicated surface prep, even when the finish cures and stops shrinking, quickly, as nitro and the newer UV cure finishes do. When you're using shellac or brushed varnish the whole thing gets harder.

Shellac is actually a pretty hard finish in some respects: Schleskie measured the hardness at about 1/3 less than nitro at the same thickness. These days, with the prevalence of catalyzed and UV cure finishes, nitro is considered 'soft'. Upcoming guitarists deal with 'bulletproof' coatings all the time, and don't learn to care for their instruments as they probably should. In my old shop we used to have players come in to try things and do damage in a half hour that took a month or more to fix, and no amount of cautioning them seemed to help. You can't do Flamenco 'golpe' on a cedar topped Classical guitar with no pickguard and French polish with impunity, and the player only has to forget and tap once. Thicker shellac would be more protective, of course, but the object is to preserve the sound with a thin finish.

Even with 'perfect' surface prep it's very difficult and time consuming to get a 'flawless' finish with varnish that comes up to the modern 'industrial' standard. Oil-resin varnishes require three months to more or less finish curing, and they shrink the whole time. Even with epoxy or CA pore filler you'll still see the pores unless you allow the thing to hang for three months or more between putting on the final coat and leveling it out. Most of us simply can't afford that.

So, no, from my point of view, the modern finish standard is not a low bar at all: not if I'm going to meet my standard for sound as well. The finish standard is there, and we have to do the best we can to meet it. After all, it doesn't matter how good the thing sounds if the people won't take it off the wall in the first place. I have to say that much of my effort for the past 15-20 years has been precisely in improving my level of finish, and at this point I don't feel as though I have to apologize for the results. But it's been a long slog, and it's still not the 'new Mercedes' look that people want. You know you got the finish 'right' when a fly tries to land on the guitar, skids off, and breaks his leg falling to the floor....



These users thanked the author Alan Carruth for the post: SKBarbour (Sun Dec 01, 2013 1:06 pm)
Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Dec 01, 2013 2:20 pm 
Offline
Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2008 8:55 pm
Posts: 3820
Location: Taiwan
First name: Tai
Last Name: Fu
City: Taipei
Country: Taiwan
Focus: Repair
Status: Semi-pro
The glass isn't half empty, it's twice as big as it needs to be.

_________________
Cat-gut strings are made from kitten guts, stretched out to near breaking point and then hardened with grue saliva. As a result these give a feeling of Pain and anguish whenever played, and often end up playing themselves backwards as part of satanic rituals.

Typhoon Guitars
http://www.typhoon-guitars.com


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 31 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2

All times are UTC - 5 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot] and 20 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
phpBB customization services by 2by2host.com