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Hello,

In a fairly recent episode of the Fretboard Journal podcast Jason interviewed Jim Olson. He talked about doing"batch builds" and the value of doing the same task over several iterations in one shot to get better at the task itself. I've heard Hesh talk about this too, that the time between certain tasks makes it difficult for individual builders to get really efficient and dialed in.

I'm finishing up #3 now (a parlor) and planning to build four dreadnoughts at the same time (gulp).

Question: Given that I only have one mold and one "universal" outside form, I will have to give some consideration to how granular I get with "a task". Do you folks build in batches? What do you consider a stopping point for each task. Meaning, do you join all the backs, then all the tops, then bend all the sides, etc.... or would you get to closing the box, then start over on the next one? Those are two extremes, I understand, but have you found good starting and stoping points that work well for you?

Hopefully that is clear, let me know if not.

Thanks!
Brad


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I learned the value of repeating a task in a short time a couple weeks ago when I got to make two bridges back-to-back after ruining the first one. The second one got made in half the time of the first one mainly because everything was already set up.

I'll be interested in hearing responses to your question. The only thing I do in batches so far is making sets of braces. I have several sets of braces sitting on the shelf ready to be glued on when I have the next tops and backs ready to go.

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If something involved much set up time, I try to make more that one if I can, even if it's not needed right away.

I made a batch of 4 and I did whatever I could together. Saved time, but got repetitious. I think I braced and closed boxes separately. Wish I could sell 4 at once!

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Pat

This early in your building I would caution about building too much all at the same time as it prevents you from learning and improving. You risk repeating lower grade work or locking yourself into decisions as your mind and skills develop and evolve.

That being said, there are some aspects which are no-brainers at any level of skill level.

-Preparing your material to near ready states.
-preparing and slotting fretboards
-making nuts and bridges
-making bridges.
-bulk preparing bracing materials
-bending binding.
-making necks (once you have practiced on scrap pieces and have everything just so)

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The beauty of "batches" is you get to make the same mistake over and over again.

There are some things I do in batches - making kerfed linings, roughing out necks, making end blocks, gluing center seams on soundboards and backs, making bridge blanks. I'll batch things that require some set up time, but only take them to the point where they could be used on a number of instruments. Final finishing happens when they are selected for a particular instrument.

I have batch built cheap little "pickin sticks" where I had a design worked out and prototyped. They were fun to build that way in a rather care free fashion.
I often work on more than one instrument at a time, but they are usually completely different and at different stages of completion and can't be considered a "batch". For a professional builder doing "batches" makes more sense, especially if they have a waiting list.

Practice is very much important - but you don't have to build a whole guitar to get that practice.

The caution is that you can make all the same mistakes in batches as well.

You also end up doing 4x as much of the stuff you hate doing all at once and there's no relief. I would NOT look forward to doing the finishes on 4 guitars all at the same time. One at a time gives me plenty of headaches.

Go through your entire process in your head and visualize all the tools, clamps, fixtures and space you will need for each step. I'm sure you will find that the mold is not the only limiting factor. You'll probably find other tasks that you don't have enough clamps (or space) to do 4 of the same glue ups at a time. This will help you decide what stages you have to separate and what you can be doing on another guitar while one is drying. That answer will be different for each of us based on our processes, space and tools. I could joint and glue 4 backs and 4 tops all at the same time but I couldn't assemble 4 rims or brace 4 backs and 4 tops at the same time. I would have to figure out a system that has me bracing plates for one guitar while assembling the rims for another. You might have the opposite issue.

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Bryan Bear PMoMC

Take care of your feet, and your feet will take care of you.

As ever there is much sense talked here.
I have recognised there are big time savings in the more generic tasks such as making head and tail blocks, kerfed linings etc, where the set up time is significant. Well worth thinking about even as an amateur builder if you are going to make more than a couple.

And I do think the issue of skill level is important. We just do get better at a task when done several times over in a relatively short space of time rather than weeks or months. ( I won't even go into years!)

Dave

I would suggest looking at Charlie Hoffmans site.

He builds in batches and outlines the whole process in great detail on his site.

Also Darren Hippner builds in large batches -I think around a dozen at a time.
I don't think he shows it on his site,
but he does show it on his Facebook page.

One thing I did was to simulate a whole bunch of repetitions on jointing tops and backs. So my actual joints in the actual guitar's top and back would be good in real life.

I sawed up a 2x4 into 2' long, 1.5" wide X 3/16" thick strips and jointed them. I then jointed those and made 2 tops that each had about 14 pieces in it. Then - I went back and inspected the joints and re-did all the ones I messed up... By the time I was done, I had (re) jointed probably 60 joints and had 26 good joints...

And at that point - I had sorted out the basic mechanics of how to get a top/back center seam joint right. And it cost me $3.00 and a bottle of glue. I did my first "real" top without issue and it's still holding up just fine almost 10 years later.

This is an example of how you can do the repetitions without having to build a bunch of guitars or burn up expensive wood to the learning process. A batch of 4 dreads could easily burn up $1,500 worth of materials and supplies...

Thanks

I'm building 2 at once right now, a six and a 12 string. I have to say it's definitely time saving but it was a real shock to me on how much space you need and how many more clamps etc you need. Think I will probably go back to one at a time next

So you were developing guitar building methods in virtual reality? Very cool and years ahead of the curve to boot!

I haven't done anything anywhere near that extensive, but I can sure see the value in it. I bent six practice sides on the hot pipe before doing the real ones. One step I practice repeatedly is scoring the finish around the bridge since I don't get to do it that many times a year. Each time I have a guitar ready for that step, I do practice scorings around a wood bridge template on scrap spruce two or three times. Then I do it in real life. Since I don't have a lot of inlay experience yet, I also do practice versions of new inlays before doing the real thing.

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Once in a while you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right - Robert Hunter

So at the risk of being boring I would say again that the excercise of skills is important. As Jay suggests practicing an operation is useful and batch production of some parts is a useful way to achieve this.

Dave

I've definitely started making parts in batches. This would be bridges, braces, blocks, necks, and so on. I think the repetition of these steps can be very helpful in building skills, finessing jigs, and learning to work more efficiently. However, there is another benefit in this approach as well and that is that once you have a supply of parts in stock, you can find your own natural building pace. For me, this is important, as it allows me get into a rhythm and focus my attention in a more holistic way on the guitar I'm working on at that moment. This sounds kind of mystical, I know, but I think there is something about being able to flow through the process of building the actual guitar that leads to better results. Stopping to make the separate elements as I go along feels disjointed and non-musical to me.

Hey, maybe I'm just an old hippie! That's like, groovy, man.

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George :-)

I make parts in batches as well and almost always build two at a time but the few times I built three I hated it. It began to seem like factory work.

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Have always built 2 at a time (tenor ukuleles)....more efficient. Tried 3, now back to 2. Batch small stuff (rosettes, end blocks, neck blocks, nuts, saddles). At one point, 1 instrument takes the 'lead' and the other one catches up, maybe 1-2 weeks later.....In rough numbers, 1 may take approx 40 hrs., 2 maybe 60 hrs total....my $.02.

In hind sight - I am glad that I haven't made guitars in batches yet.

Some of my ideas turned out to not pan out in real life.... But you really don't know that till the guitar is done and has been playing for a few weeks/months.

I sure am glad I don't have 4 of my first scratch made dread..... I built the top too light and it got pretty woofy a couple months after I put strings on it.... I ended up putting a Prolux brace in it - and it helped a lot....

My 1st, 2nd, and 3rd guitars took a LOT of post build voicing to get them tuned in.

#7 was my first ladder braced guitar... And I had to add an extra top brace right in front of the bridge... But it sounds and plays great now and I incorporated that extra top brace into my 2016 Challenge Build.

#8 was my 2nd dread - and it came out pretty well.. But I only had strings on it for about 3 hours before it was gone to a family member for Christmas. I need to get it back soon to give it its first real settled in setup and check out the top/back frequencies to see if it needs back brace shaving.

#6 still isn't done for a variety of reasons. It just hangs there looking at me sadly.

And Here's what I learned:
Don't make batches until you have more or less sorted out the guitar models you are batching. That way - you keep your mistakes and prototype bad ideas from getting spread across lots of guitars.

Thanks

I agree with batch building. It's what I do.

I'm building #3 and 4 simultaneously, so far I like building more than one at a time. I'm learning a lot by repeating the same steps multiple times. I'm also getting a better understanding of working with HHG. Both guitars are 13 fret L-00 shaped guitars, I only have the one outside mold. I prepared the neck blanks, tops and backs at the same time. Once the tops/ backs were braced and ready, I bent one set of sides and prepared the rim for gluing on the top and back. After that box is together I'll remove it from the mold and build the next box. From there the two bodies should progress through the rest of the build process together.

I am going to have to second the warning against batch building for a novice.

That is perhaps hypocritical of me because we are about to have a "production" class at Palomar College that I am going to help teach where we are going to have students make 40 identical guitars to give to charity. The challenges of the woodworking program at a public institution is that we have to have an eye on training people for a commercial venture, not just a hobby. This year the "Production" class happens to fall on the lutherie program. Although chair making, cabinetry, etc., have also had their turn at the production class.

That said, it is not being done as a hobby. The guitars are spoken for. The plans are very traditional tried and true. The program has been producing 60+ guitars and ukuleles for over more than a dozen years. There are people with lifetimes of production woodworking (most not in lutherie) assisting with the curriculum. Etc.

That is very different than trying to move from a single guitar to a production run of four, especially as a relative novice. Production is something different. Tooling is different. Choices are different. Space requirements are different. Yes, practicing a skill is very important. But the OP isn't talking about carving 5 necks as a project in and of itself, or resewing a dozen backs and side sets out of Poplar for practice. He wants to build four complete guitars simultaneously.

Here is my suggestion:

Build four guitars sequentially, but give yourself a time limit on each. Make a plan to build and finish a guitar in eight weeks. What guitar would you build if you had a time limit? How would you organize your work? With each guitar you will get better and faster. And if you are building the same guitar within a few months of each other, you will get that skills practice you are looking for. You won't have time to get rusty or forget a skill. But you have less risk of getting bogged down with eight bent sides you don't know where to put, four backs glueing up at the same time, four go-bar decks, four times the number of clamps. Ugh, and the thought of having four guitars to sand and prep for spraying at the same time makes me weak in the knees!

If you have a professional shop and have made dozens if not hundreds of your mature design, and plan on making hundreds more, working in batches makes a lot of sense. But I don't think it is going to be a useful exercise for guitars number 4 through 8.

Thanks for all the suggestions.

This is a good idea, rlrhett. I'm leaning in a direction close to your suggestion. I'm thinking more of a "macro" batch combined with some of the suggestions about getting certain items prepared in advance.

Prep work:

1) Prepare brace stock so that all that is left is radius and glueup. (Voicing individually of course)
2) Prepare all neck and end blocks.
3) Prepare all purfling / binding layup and bend.
4) Cut all the rosettes (thickness and finalize individually).
5) Prepare all bridge stock and get them close to final dimensions.
6) Prepare, slot and bind all fretboards.

Batch:
-Body-
1) Take each box to closure. Complete for all instruments (thinking 2 now instead of 4).
2) End wedge on each box.
3) Binding on each box.
4) Mortise each box.

-Neck-
1) Buy prepared necks from Andy Birko .
2) Attach fretboard, headplates on each neck. Shape and radius as needed.
3) Final adjustments.

Something like this anyway.

Thanks for all the helpful feedback!

Brad




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I am currently building 6 and 7 at the same time, and they are very similar but not identical (one is regular scale, the other a baritone). After these two are done, I had planned on moving back to one at a time for a while, and I still feel that is best. I am not at the point yet that my processes are fully worked out. I'm still working through my favorite ways of doing specific things.

My suggestion is to add up your planned, known costs before you decide what to do....

For example... For one guitar the way you are talking about.
$120. IRW/Honduras Mahog back/sides set
$ 45. Sitka top
$250. Precut neck
$ 50. Pre-slotted fretboard and bridge
$100. Trussrod, tuners, and fretwire.
-------
$565 each not counting incidentals.

Thanks. I already have all the materials minus the necks, which I have the blanks to supply to the CNC guru. I get your point though.


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Can I ask, without offending, why you are buying the necks instead of building them?