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 Post subject: Did You Ever?
PostPosted: Tue May 11, 2021 4:35 pm 
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Cocobolo
Cocobolo

Joined: Sat Mar 09, 2019 4:50 pm
Posts: 472
Location: Goodrich, MI
First name: Ken
Last Name: Nagy
City: Goodrich
State: MI
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
I'm new are guitar making. About half of the things I do, I plan on doing them a little different the next time. This "process" will not be repeated; I hope.

I decided not to rough in the slot for the neck with a saw. It needs a step, and a dowel hole, and a threaded insert to bolt the neck on, and I figured (there's the problem) I'd be more likely to have the neck in the right place doing the slot after. Probably true. But I forgot one (two?) things:

Attachment:
IMG_0362.jpg


Yes! Drilling the holes with the block glued on in NO FUN. I had to shorten the drills for the insert, they were an inch or so too long. The dowel hole I drilled from the outside, but angled it up some so I could drill into the neck after the neck is set. It will probably need some final adjustment after the back is on, but it should be close.

I got them done, so now it is on to getting the sides glued on, and making and gluing on the little tentallones? peones? I don't know what you call them!

Then I can set the neck.


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 Post subject: Re: Did You Ever?
PostPosted: Tue May 11, 2021 7:04 pm 
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Koa
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Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2007 2:45 pm
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Location: Calgary, Canada
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I know you've been building for a while Ken. I can't say I've ever seen the blocks glued to the top or back first before, not to say it wouldn't work. I've always seen and always glued them to the sides in the mold first. I have forgotten to drill the holes at least once before, although it was before I installed the top so was still able to use my drill press, ha! Normally, I drill the holes once the blocks are glued to the sides but before the back or top are installed. At times, I've drilled and countersunk the holes before glue up to the sides.


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 Post subject: Re: Did You Ever?
PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2021 9:37 am 
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Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 10:44 am
Posts: 5114
Location: Virginia
I glue blocks to the top first too. This is the Spanish method of building off the top. I believe it's the method used in the Cumpiano/Natleson book too.

Not sure why you can't drill those bolt holes in the block from the outside though? A dowel in the heel of the neck is a good idea to take the threaded inserts. I put the grain of the dowel so that it is positioned flat sawn perpendicular to the direction of the threaded inserts.

Peonies or dentellones (teeth).


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 Post subject: Re: Did You Ever?
PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2021 11:01 am 
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Cocobolo
Cocobolo

Joined: Sat Mar 09, 2019 4:50 pm
Posts: 472
Location: Goodrich, MI
First name: Ken
Last Name: Nagy
City: Goodrich
State: MI
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
I have to be able to drill the dowel hole, and the hole for the bolt from the inside into the neck. Fit the neck, clamp in place, drill the holes. I drilled the bottom hole out for the threaded insert on the inside. It is going into the block on the quarter sawn side; the end grain is on the open at the sides. I did drill the dowel hole from the outside, but I had to make sure that I could still drill it into the neck from the inside, so the dowel would work! I can't really imagine the insert going anywhere. Can it?

I used to have the Cumpiano/Natelson book. Sold it at a garage sale. For some reason I decided to make violins! Wish I still had it.

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 Post subject: Re: Did You Ever?
PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2021 11:51 am 
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Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 10:44 am
Posts: 5114
Location: Virginia
Oh I was thinking about something different, so are you saying you are going to use a dowel to join the neck as well as a bolt.


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 Post subject: Re: Did You Ever?
PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2021 12:28 pm 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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First name: Bryan
Last Name: Bear
City: St. Louis
State: Mo
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I do a bolt on butt joint so my joint is different but we both drill holes into the block and heel. I used to drill the holes in my neck block before I closed the box then use dowel centers to mark where to drill the holes in the heel once the box was done and the neck blank peeped. Now I drill the holes after the body is all done, binding finished and body blocked. I made two little hugs with drill bushings that I can line up with the centerline and top edge of the box. I drill my holes and know they are always in the same place, same distance and square to the side. Then I do the same on the heel lining up the centerline and fretboard edge of the neck blank. I do this after the neck angle is cut close to final and the cross grain fowl is in the heel. That way I know the holes will line up and also be square to the heel mating surface.

I countersink for the bolt holes from the outside with the tool I got from Elevate.

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 Post subject: Re: Did You Ever?
PostPosted: Wed May 12, 2021 12:59 pm 
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Cocobolo
Cocobolo

Joined: Sat Mar 09, 2019 4:50 pm
Posts: 472
Location: Goodrich, MI
First name: Ken
Last Name: Nagy
City: Goodrich
State: MI
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
jfmckenna wrote:
Oh I was thinking about something different, so are you saying you are going to use a dowel to join the neck as well as a bolt.


This is the same thing, from the same blog I got the working drawing from, I just printed it out on regular paper, I might be full size. This is a very cool looking Terz. I drew up a plan for an Arch top using the Terz on the treble, and regular on the bass, to get a natural cutaway. Anyway, this link shows more how it works. I found the big one, it is the second link. There are more photos of the joint on the Terz.

Great blog.

http://schreinerlutesandguitars.blogspot.com/2015/

http://schreinerlutesandguitars.blogspo ... -results=7

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 Post subject: Re: Did You Ever?
PostPosted: Thu May 13, 2021 9:18 am 
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Brazilian Rosewood
Brazilian Rosewood

Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 10:44 am
Posts: 5114
Location: Virginia
Looks like a good blog Ken.


Bryan. I use a bolt on butt joint too and made a very simple drill jig to accomplish that task. I'd love to see some pictures of what you were talking about to help explain it if you have any.


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 Post subject: Did You Ever?
PostPosted: Thu May 13, 2021 11:01 am 
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Koa
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Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2008 12:17 pm
Posts: 1039
City: Escondido
State: CA
Zip/Postal Code: 92029
Country: USA
Focus: Build
Status: Semi-pro
Yeah, I second jfmkenna. I’m not understanding what you are describing Bryan. You’ve piqued my curiosity. Do you have a picture of your setup?


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 Post subject: Re: Did You Ever?
PostPosted: Thu May 13, 2021 11:15 am 
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Koa
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Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2007 2:45 pm
Posts: 981
Location: Calgary, Canada
Status: Amateur
jfmckenna wrote:
I glue blocks to the top first too. This is the Spanish method of building off the top. I believe it's the method used in the Cumpiano/Natleson book too.

Not sure why you can't drill those bolt holes in the block from the outside though? A dowel in the heel of the neck is a good idea to take the threaded inserts. I put the grain of the dowel so that it is positioned flat sawn perpendicular to the direction of the threaded inserts.

Peonies or dentellones (teeth).

Right you are. It's been a long time since I opened the C & N book and have never built a classical or flamenco.


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 Post subject: Re: Did You Ever?
PostPosted: Thu May 13, 2021 12:36 pm 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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First name: Bryan
Last Name: Bear
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State: Mo
Country: USA
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
Image
I almost hate to post a picture since they are literally made from scraps. One for the neck and one for the body. They have drill bushings matches to the sizes of bit for the bolt (body) and insert (neck). I took care to ensure the holes were the same distance apart and the same distance from the oak strips. The oak strips rest on the body or top of the neck blank and I clamp them down matching the centerline. Then just drill the holes. This makes the hole in the body perpendicular to the rim and since I rough in the neck angle before drilling the neck holes go in perpendicular to the butt joint surface.


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Bryan Bear PMoMC

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 Post subject: Re: Did You Ever?
PostPosted: Thu May 13, 2021 12:38 pm 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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First name: Bryan
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This is the counterbore I use to countersink the bolt heads from outside the box. Put it in through the sound-hole and run the drill in reverse.


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Bryan Bear PMoMC

Take care of your feet, and your feet will take care of you.


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 Post subject: Re: Did You Ever?
PostPosted: Thu May 13, 2021 12:58 pm 
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Contributing Member
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Joined: Sat Jan 31, 2009 8:50 pm
Posts: 2015
Location: Seattle WA
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jfmckenna wrote:
I put the grain of the dowel so that it is positioned flat sawn perpendicular to the direction of the threaded inserts.

Now, why didn't I think of that?!



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 Post subject: Re: Did You Ever?
PostPosted: Thu May 13, 2021 1:36 pm 
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Cocobolo
Cocobolo

Joined: Thu Aug 15, 2019 12:00 pm
Posts: 208
Location: Florida
First name: Terry
Focus: Build
Status: Professional
That countersink tool looks suspiciously like a reamer used for making pens....

anyhow, FWIW, we drill both neck block holes (including the countersink) in a drill press before the block is glued into the rimset. After the body and neck are done, I put the neck on the body (we do mortise and tenon) the way it's going to live and put a brad-point bit through the neck block holes and tap them with a heavy wrench to mark the holes, similar to using dowel pin/point markers but more accurate cuz the entire thing is fully seated in position.

Once those points are marked, the holes are drilled by hand and then we do the barrel holes on the drill press. All works fine and no special tools or odd techniques (don't know how you guys are using a drill press on a block in a glued up rimset, but maybe I'm not creative enough :-)


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 Post subject: Re: Did You Ever?
PostPosted: Thu May 13, 2021 2:30 pm 
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Brazilian Rosewood
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First name: Bryan
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Terrence, to clarify, I am not using a drill press when I do my holes just the drill guides.

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Bryan Bear PMoMC

Take care of your feet, and your feet will take care of you.



These users thanked the author Bryan Bear for the post: TerrenceMitchell (Thu May 13, 2021 6:06 pm)
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 Post subject: Re: Did You Ever?
PostPosted: Thu May 13, 2021 3:06 pm 
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Cocobolo
Cocobolo

Joined: Sat Mar 09, 2019 4:50 pm
Posts: 472
Location: Goodrich, MI
First name: Ken
Last Name: Nagy
City: Goodrich
State: MI
Focus: Build
Status: Amateur
Bryan, that idea looks like a good one. It would even work with different models and sizes. Fit the neck, drill the holes.

Speaking about almost not wanting to post a picture:

Something I've never done before; ever. My wife says it is a built in stand. It will be gone tonight,

Attachment:
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