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Guys more questions again I'm gonna be bracing the top soon and would like some advice. Took all I'd over when I visited my luthier friend, he felt the top which is a cheap 3rd swiss pine and said it was looser than he'd like it when he measured it it was 85 thou in the centre where I over sanded around the rosette gradually thickening to 110 thou at the edges. His advice was to keep the standard brace pattern, but make them thin 3/16" to 1/4" but tall 3/4" when the x braces on my plans are 5/16" wide but 9/16" tall. I guess he means correspondingly thinner and taller on the other too. He scallops his braces, but says good guitars are made both ways and says this is where each maker comes into their own after a few guitars under they're belt.

All advice welcome

Thanks

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Formerly JJH

I learn more from my mistakes than my successes

i agree thinner and taller is better

you can stiffer get braces with less wood (e.g. lighter) if you make them thinner but add some hight.
the plans you probably have are there as guide and you can change this but i would probaly go with the plans dimension for your first guitar just so you have something to referance against.

you can change the brace hight etc on your next one when you are a pro

one problem you do have is that your top is thinner in the middle than the edges.
this is the opposite way to normal.
This might cause bellying but i am not sure as i have not encountered this on any of my own builds/
the slightly over build dimensions of the plan my help to counteract this.
maybe someone else can give you some advice about the top thickness and what to do about it.

Good luck with it feel to drop me pm if you need any help,

Joel.

How did the center get so thin? Should be around .105 for stiff wood. Its kind of the opposite of your average top, thick in the middle, thin on the edges. You might want to make it an OM model. Even Baroque guitars with gut strings are at .100, but thats 10 strings. Lower bout is about 10 inches.

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Here is what a Parlor Guitar is for!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oEa8PkjO6_I

I disagree. Making them thinner will just exacerbate your problems with them telegraphing through the top. There's a reason why almost no steel sring builder goes narrower than 1/4". It's not like it's better to go narrower and no one ever figured that out until now.

You started with cheap wood, and the biggest waste of your labor now would be to continue with a top that has been overthinned. Consider it a practice piece. Toss it and get a new one, and go up a grade now that you are that much more experienced.

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Howard Klepper
http://www.klepperguitars.com

When all else fails, clean the shop.

I agree with Howard here Swiss pine will disapoint .085 thin will lead to weak top responce more less the structural issues. Get a spruce set and start the top over. it is better to correct now than later.

My first thoughts was to scrap and remake the top, but my friend is a very experianced luthier, and assured me that the top would be ok. I was especially worried as I normally play 14-58s and that it may explode and that was when he said about thin tall braces. When i said about replacing it he said your a metal worker and your teaching yourself wood work you can't expect to build without problems on a first 1 chalk it down to experiance. So I'll carry on I just wanted to know how you guys would of proceeded from this position.

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Formerly JJH

I learn more from my mistakes than my successes

add extra cross braces to make up the difference. But going from .85 Center to .110 outside is going to sound like crap most likeley.

Generaly its .105 center and .95 on the outside or like that, your doing the opposite.

So post pics of your cross braces. Ill bet it can be done. but it might sound not too good. I'm thinking cross grain 1/4 braces here and there.

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Here is what a Parlor Guitar is for!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oEa8PkjO6_I

With all do respect to your luthier friend I am not confident at all tht that top will be ok for a steel string. It is nearly 22% under what I would consider nominal for a small body steel string. I am not telling you that you must make a new top. But I will say even if this top holds up structurally I suspect it will be deficient sonically. Floppy and lacking volume.

And would, therefore, be a "Social Outcast"!

You could save it for a Classical Guitar. It might still have enough thickness for that, though, depending on stiffness, might even be thin in the center for a classical.

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Waddy

Photobucket Build Album Library

Sound Clips of most of my guitars

Does your friend build, or just repair? We all make mistakes, maybe its best to move on instead of investing the time to finish and learn. Beginner tops are not that expensive at LMI or ebay

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Here is what a Parlor Guitar is for!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oEa8PkjO6_I

He builds and repairs and did 2 years at college studying how to build a guitar, gonna carry on now hopefully if I pay him for some of his time he'll help me voice it! Just checked LMI and your tops are the same price in $ as we pay in £ so nearly half price. Its not only the redoing it its travelling to pick it up, and knowing I'll cock it up in some other way. Gonna finish this build with cheap woods so far i've spent £20 all in including glue bit of a scrap build

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Formerly JJH

I learn more from my mistakes than my successes

Which course did he take?
Just wondering, as I also took a 2 year course here in the UK, at MANCAT

Sorry it was 2 courses he took looking at his site http://grahamparker.moonfruit.com
They were OND Musical Instrument Studies and HND Musical Instrument Technology at London College of furniture now London Metroplitan University. If the worse come to the worst then I'll have to remove and remake the top.

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Formerly JJH

I learn more from my mistakes than my successes

I urge you to go ahead & make this guitar!
Make braces NO less than 1/4" and no less than 3/4" tall in the center of the top!
Also use a stiff bridge plate-.120 thick-then add a brace straight (across)behind it to help stiffen that area Like a Larivee"
Also no less than 1/4" wide but only 1/2" high!!

i also use that brace -even for thicker tops!
i hate the "Martin" belly buldge !

Learn from this!
i bet it will sound very good if you follow my advise!

Mike

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Mike Collins

Thank you for the vote of confidence, Mike was badly needed

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Formerly JJH

I learn more from my mistakes than my successes

If you want you are welcome to come round to my workshop,
we can look at your top and make an informed decision whether or not to continue with the top.

we can go with the standard braceing system and see what we can do to compansate for the thin middle.
if we decide its not worth saving then i will help you joint,brace,inlay and voice a new top that i can give you.
all this is of course free of charge as long as you come down on a weekend when i am working on my own guitars.

i will also provide hands on support for you whilst you build the rest of your guitar.
and we can get the help of the folks on the forum as we go if you so wish.

either that or we could both contiue with this top and do another one where i help you a little.

these problems are all part of the learning curve and we all experince them in one way or another dont let it get you down.

feel free to come down i would enjoy helping you get these problems sorted.

I would like to point out that the london met is the most respected guitar course in the uk and the one that most people in the industry employ from(next to mancat and merton of course) you luthier freind has been trained well and as such i would be happy listen to his advice.
But advice is just that and its up to you what you do with it

joel.