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Hi

Does anyone have experience with epifanes clear varnish? If so, what is the process that folks follow? Will I get a smoother finish if I spray with an HVLP gun or will brushing achieve similar results? How many coats do you typically apply?

My thoughts were to start the first coat with Mohawks ez vinyl sealer than apply a thinned coat of Epifanes clear varnish, wait 24hrs, scuff sand with 220 or 320 and apply a second coat (not thinned down) wait 24hrs and repeat the process for 5 coats and then let sit for a couple of days and start the buffing process.

Does this sound suitable to you folks? What should I change in the process?

I’ve heard that Kim Walker does an excellent varnish finish, does anyone have any tidbits on how he may go about it?


Thank you all

Carlos

My experience with Epiphanes in particular is in repair - specifically, one of Mr. Walker's guitars. More on that later.

Re: Mr. Walker's finishing schedule: a note to him with a bit of background and a few complements sprinkled in between your questions would not go amiss in soliciting his advice.

Generally, small shop and site-work spar (long oil) and medium oil varnishes are brushed, as they self level quite nicely with either an excellent badger-hair brush ($$$$) or a seemingly cheap, genuine PolyFoam disposable brush ($). Further - because they need anywhere from 3 (so-called quick-drying short-oil varnishes with accelerators) to 12 hours (phenolic/tung spar varnishes) to dry to be dust-free/able to handle, spraying does not provide the advantages seen with lacquer or even waterbased finishing.

When the Walker job came in, my mentor and generally gruff PITA occasional shop-mate handed me a copy of Ms. Rebecca Wittman's book, Brightwork - The Art of Finishing Wood, directed me to read it over the intervening week, then be prepared to discuss and execute the repair. Tucked under the dustcover flap was a collection of correspondence with Ms. Wittman re: restoration of the varnish work and teak decks of Mr. Stock's 37' cutter-rigged sailboat, with her unvarnished admonitions and some critical assessments of products that later made their way into Ms. Wittman's follow-on book effort for International Marine. Fascinating stuff.

Besides that note to Mr. Walker, a used copy of Brightwork in paperback might be worth the $20 or so US dollars... I see some copies on Amazon. Most of the advice in the book is circa 1990, judged largely still valid as of 2021, and is stated from Ms. Wittman's POV informed through decades of operating a commercial marine finishing business in New England (US epicenter of traditional wooden boat building and use... although Seattle is apparently close behind). My repair work on the headstock of the Walker took about six weeks end-to-end, with two weeks of cure time (varnish is a curing finish versus lacquer or shellac - both drying finishes), and was undetectable via the usual clues (texture... witness makes, etc.).

A few thoughts from someone with rather limited experience with the material: phenolic/tung oil varnish is rather picky about associations. It really, really likes clean, well-sanded wood and other clean, well-prepared varnished surfaces. Oil-based pore fillers work, as well as wet-oil sanding to create a slurry to fill grain, but can be quit muddy-looking on some timbers. Eschewing a fill stage and building from one or two well thinned sealer coats might work, as might a Silvertip epoxy fill (the boys have done this on a few projects, although not on any instrument to date that I know of). As mentioned earlier, a note to Mr. Walker might be the best info available re: duplicating his finishes.

Good luck, and IMO, you are off to a nice start on at least the joinery end of things. If you have a hard time finding a copy of Ms. Wittmann's book, PM me and I will see if I can liberate it from the confines of the Greenridge shop library for a brief spin to the northern shoreline of Lake Ontario.

Here is what I did and I really liked the results. I learned this from my Uncle Pat.
1. First coat thin down 40-50%. be sure and get high quality thinner. I like 333.
2. Scuff sand with 220
3. second and third coats thin down 5-10% if needed.
Use a foam brush. It's self leveling so if you're careful you can get it brush it out really nice.
Make sure and let it harden up prior to level sanding.
It takes a long time harden.
I didn't like that if you try to do a repair witness lines can be visible, other than this it's a great finish.
it darkens up your would and adds a bit of vintage tint to the color.
I used High Gloss

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I've never tried Epiphanes on an instrument, only this Koa built-in cabinet. It was applied with a brush, and flowed out really well. I don't remember the appplication details, but I know I used the Epiphanes thinner that was sold at that time.

The amber of the finish goes well with the wood. As I recall the liquid looked a little reddish, as opposed to golden like other varnishes.

I remember having problems with McCloskeys varnish on rosewood,not sure if the same would be true for Epiphanes.

Apologies to anyone who might’ve been eyeing the autographed copy on Amazon this afternoon. I couldn’t resist.


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Laurent Brindel used epifanes, a mixture of varnish, thinner and hardener IIRC, but he was spraying.
I have a schedule with some notes on brushing varnish with advice from Robert Ruck who sadly passed away some 6 years ago , which I can email if you would like them.

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The name catgut is confusing. There are two explanations for the mix up.

Catgut is an abbreviation of the word cattle gut. Gut strings are made from sheep or goat intestines, in the past even from horse, mule or donkey intestines.

Otherwise it could be from the word kitgut or kitstring. Kit meant fiddle, not kitten.

I finished several guitar with the Epifanes-I added a little thinner, acetone,japan drier and penetrol..used foam brush....sounds crazy, but I got nice results..although hard not to get sags and runs on the sides

Thank you all a ton! Honestly I can’t thank you guys enough for the help. A lot of good information and love hearing the stories that are associated with building and repairing.

I applied the first coat of varnish this morning with a 50/50 mix with thinner. I used a badger brush and boy does that hold a lot of material!I did have some runs and sags that I tried not to play with too much because that’s something I kept hearing about…..let the varnish do its thing, don’t overbrush it.

One thing I wasn’t crazy about was that the top seemed a little blotchy after I applied the first coat. I’m not sure if it will look a little different after a few coats. Plan was a total of 4 coats.

Tomorrow morning I’ll sand with 220 and recoat. How do you deal with sags and runs?

All the best

Carlos

Any photos Brad? Would love to see what it looks like in the end. Did you sand and buff?

Thank you Colin! Would love some more info. I’ll shoot you a PM with my email address.

What’s a hardener IIRC?

Thank you for the tips. This is very similar to what I was thinking of doing.

I did reach out to Mr.Walker a few days ago and haven’t heard anything back. I’m totally ok with him holding back on his information. He’s an incredible builder and has earned his reputation with hard work and a lot of testing I’m sure. The way we do stuff in our shops will vary tremendously and that’s the beauty of guitar building/repairing. We adapt our methods to the tools that are available in OUR shops.

I’ll definitely keep an eye out for that book!

Best

Carlos

Carlos, that is going to be a stunning guitar!

Yes, I sanded it and buffed it on the machine after it was dry for a few weeks… Then applied some wax.




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A good way to get rid or runs and sags is to use a single edge razor with the corners rounded off. I used to put scotch tape on the ends but I’ve stopped bothering. You can bend a curve in the blade as you scrape for a near perfectly flush finish.

I’ve found that trying to sand has a tendency to burn through around the outskirts of a run…

(epifanes) hardener (IIRC - if I recall correctly)
Awaiting your pm.

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The name catgut is confusing. There are two explanations for the mix up.

Catgut is an abbreviation of the word cattle gut. Gut strings are made from sheep or goat intestines, in the past even from horse, mule or donkey intestines.

Otherwise it could be from the word kitgut or kitstring. Kit meant fiddle, not kitten.

Looks amazing Brad!!

I applied the second coat yesterday morning and it’s starting to look nice. A couple of things I noticed that I need to address is that the pores are quite pronounced…will the next two coats of Epifanes fill the grain or should I use something like Aqua Coat before applying the next coat of varnish?

The second thing I noticed is that the finish seems to be a little tacky after 24hrs. I’m going to wait another day or two and hopefully it dries up. I put it near a fan to air it out and see if that helps. Hopefully it doesn’t become a issue and dries up nicely. Any experience with similar issues?

Carlos

Traditional phenolic/tung oil varnishes - especially long-oil varnishes - are not usually in charity with rosewood and other highly resinous timbers, or those laden with extractives such as WRC. Expect that first and perhaps second coat to cure at a slower - sometimes MUCH slower rate than subsequent coats. Something in the timber's resins can dramatically slow down the cure process, but always does eventually cure in my experience. That first coat can take 72 hours (rosewood and a zirocote coupon), but it will be sandable at some point.

On the pores, they will fill and will not shrink back to any degree one the finish is built and allowed to fully cure (2 weeks following last coat). Pore filling will take additional coats over something like a pastewood or epoxy pore fill, so take your time and enjoy the process! FWIW, the labor involved in a good varnish finish is one of the reasons why it is a boutique builder's finish, while polyesters, urethanes, and lacquers are much more common.

Like Woodie said -- and I'll add I've had oil finishes applied over oily woods stay tacky till I removed them even after a couple weeks. Hope yours dries!

Sealing oily wood with a couple coats of shellac first has been the cure for me. Did you use a vinyl sealer and is it compatible with your varnish?

I wouldn't try to apply a pore filler over your varnish, especially a water based filler without a lot of testing.

I also wouldn't apply more varnish (or filler) until the tackyness is gone and you have a sandable surface.

I'm not a finish expert by any means but I have wrestled with a lot of spray booth alternatives.

Going to be a beautiful guitar when you get the finish sorted out!

Brian

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Brian R, Wood Mechanic
N8ZED

Appreciate the feedback! I applied the second coat on Friday and it still feels slightly tacky in some parts. When I run the back of my nail it drags along in certain areas and in other areas it glides smoothly. I’m hoping a few more days should dry things along so I can apply the third coat.

I’ll keep you folks posted.

Thank you!

I have found that UV lights will speed the cure of the oil-resin varnishes I've tried. Apparently the UV reacts with VOCs to produce ozone, which reacts much faster than O2. Put the lights on the finish as soon as you hang the guitar up, while there's plenty of VOC around.

I've gotten pretty good at avoiding runs, primarily by switching to a smaller brush that doesn't hold as much varnish. At this point I use a soft 1" (camel hair?) brush, and pull the varnish on just as thin as I can. The addition of a couple of drops of kerosene or lavender oil helps to keep the brush from dragging. Kerosene is cheaper, but lavender smells nicer...

The Murdoch's I use is a floor finish, so it's pretty runny, and I tend to end up using ten or so coats over a pumice/shellac fill. The first three varnish coats soak into the filled pores a bit, so they shrink back. I sand back to bare wood, and go from there with 6-8 coats. That's on new work, of course.