Official Luthiers Forum!

Perhaps it is a bit presumptuous of me, but I will beg Mr. Krangenbrink's indulgence to title this post as an invitation to those departed active status over the previous year as a result of the minor tussles we occasionally see here (e.g, the most recent EnduroVar thread or similar). My family had a tradition of considering New Year's Day as a reset to feuds and follies as well as forgiveness of what can be forgiven and a willingness to extend forbearance to what might take longer to forgive.

I offer this note in that tradition: that the first day of the new year warrants the promise of a civil, welcoming return of all of our prodigals, as much because even an occasionally fractious friend is still a friend as it is that this forum needs all it's members present and contributing to survive the onslaught of competing AI-generated nonsense advice and a flood of horrible YouTube videos detailing how to abuse hapless instruments.

What a wonderful tradition that all of us should consider adopting. At the age a fair number of us have reached, enough friends disappear as it is, for reasons we don't have the power to undo.

Woodie—

I am a firm believer in the value, and power, of forgiveness. I think the true measure of any belief system or philosophy (or life road map, or whatever) is how you treat people, especially the people you don’t like.

But I draw a distinction between forgiveness and whether a relationship (any sort of relationship) can continue into the future, in the wake of bad events in the relationship. Sometimes, continuing the relationship into the future is not a good idea for the forgiver.

A few years ago, I ran into a situation here on the OLF, and as a result, I ended my interaction with the other person. The question was/is not my ability to forgive; I’m happy to do so. But this person keeps doing the same things over and over to different people. It is pretty clear that this is part of who this person is, and they are not going to stop doing what they do. After their last episode (involving somebody other than me), they stopped participating in the OLF.

Since this person and I are not otherwise tethered (i.e., we are not part of the same family, workplace, church, etc.), there is no good reason for me to subject myself to that person’s brokenness. I wish him good fortune and long life. If he ever truly needed anything from me that I had the power to give, I would give it. But in the end, the bads in our dealings outweighed the goods, and the odds of him getting better are low, so I will likely continue to refrain from interacting with him here on the OLF, if he chooses to resume his participation.

Would contrition by this other person help change my mind? Maybe; for sure, it wouldn’t hurt. But so far, this person is unrepentant. So, it’s an academic question.

Sorry if this comes off as a downer in contrast to your message of welcome and forgiveness. But sometimes, ending a bad relationship (of any type) is better than enduring it.

Sounds like I missed some fun…

I’ve never been angry at anyone so I don’t have to forgive anyone (lol, nice for a change). But I sure do miss this place being more active. It has always been my favorite forum and I’ve been viewing this place DAILY since it started (or shortly after). I hope it will pick back up. I remember the 13th fret way, way back when there was a big blow up and it died dead as a result. I hope better for this place and appreciate your effort Woodie.

@Woodie G

A great post and I couldn't agree more,,,

@doncaparker

A great post and I couldn't agree more,,,


Funny how that works in my head...

I have also have been on the bad side of this one mentioned person. I let it drive me away and stop posting here. I recently chaned my mind because I like all the other people here why let one change that.

Hope others feel the same,

Happy New Year OLF 2026

Cheers
Bob

I pop in from time to time, and found this a welcoming thread for the new year. Also, a great tradition. My visits here have become infrequent, in part, due to the effusive and acerbic speech of some of some folks that seem to hold court here almost as if they owned this forum and had the definitive perspective on how "luthiering" is done. No need to forgive on my part - they have done no direct harm to me. But there is something to be said for a community that can exchange ideas freely without insulting the people posting.

With that said I'll try to stop by with more frequency. Happy New Year to you all and thanks WoodieG for your welcoming post!

Andy

on the surface this subject seems clear cut and simple...but after having chewed over even responding to this post it has become rather complex in the totality of ramifications.

at the root of it all is individuals being a$$es...many times being full of pompous mendacity, and if the person has been overly narcissistic in general beforehand their questionable response will many times be already slated to be viewed dimly.

in an ideal world the community would deal with it either by making PM's or public posts indicating to basically shut the he!! up...unfortunately this rarely works as you will soon have a gang fight going on caused if nothing else by gangs being gangs and refusing to be logical and factual and instead just supporting their "buds"...the way I look at it, if you can't call your friend out for being a jerk, then they aren't really a friend. point being, the community response rarely works and that only leaves having a moderator deal with it.

I've also chewed over the thought of making specific comments about it all, and will only say the following:

this community is one of amateurs interacting with "professionals"...to me, a "professional" insulting anyone else about the specific finish they want to use is over the top. I bet the vast majority of people finishing instruments would totally love to use UV cured finishes with the caveat they'd do so if somebody gave them all of the expensive stuff required to do so. in the end any real musician would rather have an instrument that sung like the angels and looked like junk as opposed to having a perfectly fit and finished one that sounded like a walrus dying on the beach. the Endurovar thread, after reviewing it calmly after the fact, appears to have fallen into the aforementioned scenario of preconceived ill will from a member and that triggered what followed. e.g. the initial offending response was thinly veiled in innocence and what followed is what followed...

as far as any resolution to it all I'm up in the air about it all as on one side I appreciate the hard earned wisdom and sharing of it, and on the other fed up with hearing about the virtues of who he works for

@Mike_P
Would have expected Woodie G. to come up with this quote;
"By aggrandizing one's own abilities and achievements, the grandiose person remains out of touch with who they truly are and as such, remains prone to crossing the boundaries of others." — Steven Franssen

You have far greater faith in my abilities than I entertain in myself, but thanks! After someone likened my comments in the EnduroVar thread to the 'Manners... Maketh... Man' beat-down scene in Kingsman: The Secret Service, I have steered well clear of even a hint of pithy, well-reasoned, sharp-edged commentaries such as Mr. Franssen's utterly devastating critique of those seen more clearly for his well chosen words.

Instead, I'll offer a lyric pull from the second verse and chorus of Leigh Nash and Steven Wilson Jr's 'Made for This.' Intended as a discussion of the three choices in any lengthy marriage, I believe it serves a broader purpose in highlighting the choices - already touched upon in several of the thoughtful responses above - in our relationships with the site and other members.


I'm sorry, I know I can be dramatic
I hate that it felt automatic
A thousand times before

Oh, we're not made for this
We could cash in our chips
But if we stay on this bus long enough
Eventually the scene will change

Or we could pack it all up, give it up
Or we could try to make it right again
'Cause we're not made for this...


Simply tolerate and silently stew, pack it in and leave, or 'make it right again.' I am afraid too many of our friends here, weary of the behaviors already noted above, have chosen one of the first two options, rather than the last - likely because 'make it better' is extraordinarily difficult without active intervention by the site owner and/or more or less unanimous consent from the membership.

If nothing else, this thread should still stand as an invitation to return... but perhaps with an exception or two.

And the list goes on.

“Simply tolerate and silently stew” is so hard to do.

As long as I've been here, about 10 years, this forum has not been actively managed. Requests to deal with these issues seem to be ignored, possibly also due to favoritisms, who knows. At least this is what I've understood, to include from some of those that have been here much longer than I. But yes, and the wearing out of those who endured until endure no more has significantly contributed to the exodus here, as best as I can tell.

I haven't been spending a lot of consistent time here for the last couple of years, so I don't really know what exactly has been going on. This is mostly because I am currently without a shop, not because I have been disillusioned by anyone or anything. So, I'm fairly objective here in my thoughts about this place and places like it.

There are as many personalities here as there are members. That can be challenging sometimes. I've been reading and posting here for more than a 15 years. I have interacted with people I seem to like very much and the occasional characters that rubbed me the wrong way (to put it nicely). I have always tried to remember that I am, first and foremost, here to gain knowledge and share what little knowledge I can when it is helpful. I also want to have an enjoyable time while I'm here and have made many friendships along the way. I've seen many of the dust ups and have tried to stay out of them. Occasionally I have tried to add commentary to redirect what I see as bad behavior. That can be difficult to do without making some feel like you are piling on or emboldening other's outsized responses. I always try to do no harm; maybe I should be more vocal, who's to say.

About a decade ago, I was talking to an OLFer (no longer here) and he asked me about my thoughts on certain personalities (not anyone being discussed here) and current tensions. I told him that I had learned quite a bit form their posts over the years, I probably don't want to go bowling with them, but I'm glad they are posting. That's kind of how I am wired. It is easy for me to keep an arms distance from behaviors I don't like and focus on the relevant aspects of the relationship. I'm that co-worker that people can't understand why I am not angry at the *sshole in the office. But I fully recognize that other people have different philosophies and those are equally valid.

It is my hope, that all people who care enough about the craft to post, can participate here. This place is much better than all the facebook and similar groups where random people can post snarky advice without any real indication that they have any experience beyond reading other people's unsubstantiated internet posts. This place functions best when the community polices itself and discusses practices from actual experience then lets the reader decide. I recognize that sometimes that discussion can get spirited and rub people the wrong way. We should always be on the side of productive debate rather than bad behavior. Of course we each have a different threshold for that distinction and there in lies the difficulty of policing it.

I think a lot of the friction here boils down to ego and any given person's interpretation of the respect their opinion gets compared to the respect hey feel it deserves. This is all across the spectrum from 'how dare you question me, I'm the authority' to 'how dare you question be just because I am new at this.' discussion stimulates ideas and you never know what little tidbit might trigger something in your (or some other random reader's) brain. The best luthier in the world could get a great idea from someone who is just learning and free of some of baggage that dogma can sometimes be. Someone of moderate experience can learn from a polite description of why something hasn't worked well in the past based on multiple people's experience. I try to remember that, when I decide not to post something because I feel like I don't have the clout to weigh in.

_________________
Bryan Bear PMoMC

Take care of your feet, and your feet will take care of you.

In the beginning (sounds like a bible quote) Lance and Brock were very active and the forum was more tightly controlled. As it always happens, a few and in this case mainly one, decided the forum was his personal soap box for advertising his vast knowledge and promoting himself. Yes, he chased away many.
I refuse. I don’t post much but I value the collective knowledge.

I get the "rub the wrong way" - maybe a bit more brash or acerbic personality. But that's not what we are talking about here. We are discussing a behavior of going on personal attacks, belittling people, ad hominem self-aggrandizement as a backdrop for justifying that kind of behavior. Simply in the 10 years I've been here I've never seen this addressed by the forum owner. What I've understood from a few people that have been here much longer, when ownership was more involved, was that this was actively tolerated.

But aside from that, yes I agree with your more general personalities observations!

To forgive is not the same as giving absolution. Many people confuse the two.

_________________
Rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy

I quite agree in the formal sense, and suggest that those individuals either offered forgiveness or extended a degree of forbearance - which is quite literally the exercise of patience - are obligated to examine their past behaviors and do what is necessary to avoid a repeat of provocations and offenses. There is no formal penance required here as might be the case in matters of faith; however, I would expect that as a minimum, sincerely offered apologies should be made and some degree of introspection endured to avoid what some have characterized earlier in the thread as a pattern of negative behaviors.

A few thoughts:

- Empathy is not a teachable skill, although the world would be a much better place if it were. That said, feeling someone else's pain is something which may be successfully mimicked if for no other reason than to grease the ways of social interactions.

- Think about the the oft-cited difference between nice and kind, then move firmly in the direction of kindness. Being nice is something done to garner external approval without necessarily involving any sincere degree of care for others - it is at the root of the current practice of virtue signalling and the fight to garner 'likes' or similar on social media. Being kind is rooted in sincere care and regard for others, and - with manners - is an external manifestation of our beliefs concerning ourselves AS MUCH AS those others. It is a less easily mimicked behavior than niceness, because it arises from those core beliefs we hold close.

- Impulse control can be learned. We even teach it to our children and canine family members, albeit with varying degrees of success. Our advice to our children and our friends when angry at someone often involves something along the lines of 'count to ten' or to put aside that sharp-edged response to provocation for a day or three before re-drafting or discarding entirely. Simply stated: slow down when upset or angry.

- I hesitate to include this last, but it bears mention in this modern age: those dependent on the miracle of modern pharmacological therapies for successful social interactions should hew closely to prescribed use, dose, and frequency, as well as understand that being under care includes periodic assessment and adjustment of those therapies. Don't skip, don't play catch-up without guidance, and don't miss checkups. If out of charity with one's meds, avoid either reading or posting anything on social media.

I think of Mr. Robby Hecht's wonderful circa 2020 tune when I stray into offering non-repair advice:

'dang Good Advice' from Me and the Fool I've Been

[Verse 1]
Well, just saddle up here on this stool at the bar
Order up something, then pour out your heart
Look deep in your soul, there's a way to pull through
No matter what's broken, here's what you do

[Chorus]
Quit drinking, quit smoking, tell your lover you love 'em
Keep kissin', try to listen, buy roses by the dozen
You won't ever get lonesome, yeah, wouldn't that be nice?
I wish I could take my own dang good advice

That is probably the best advice I have heard and something I practice on a regular basis. If I have something important to say and am upset with something or someone, I NEVER start a post on a forum and hit send...

I always pull up my text "exitor" and type what I want to say. I then set it aside and walk away for an hour or two. I come back and read what I wrote and ask myself if that is what I "really" want to say... It usually is not. I then re-write it and set it aside again and come back again later. I refine what I actually want to say and only then do I copy it over to a post on a forum and hit submit. By doing that I know what I am sending is exactly what I want to say and "how" I want to say it.

Maybe this could help someone not make a post in anger.

Cheers,
Bob

This is an epic typo - Rob possibly best post of the week!

Now that is funny...

I was going to edit my typo, but it is true/funny the way it is. I do "exit" a bunch of what I say the first time around.
And no my text editor does not have spell check.

Cheers,
Bob